The burnt clothing

[IchabodCrane]

The door must have been locked from outside, by the killer. So there are only two possibilities either it was Joseph Barnett or it was a previous customer who took the key with him on the last occasion he visitied. Joseph was telling the police that the key was lost around October 30th, when they separated.

Interesting is also that Cox saw Mary enter with a blotchy-faced stranger, but no mention that she reached throught the window to open the door for her customer. So the third possibilty would be that Mary kept the key and hid it from Joe, and the killer took it when he left to lock the door from outside.

[Wickerman]

In the archives, I think it was by Bob Hinton, but there exists a photo of a Spring-lock of the period. The kind of lock which 'locks' as you close the door.
You don't need a key to lock the door, just to open it, unless you reach through the window as Joe explained.

[IchabodCrane]

Hi Wickerman,
But Then it makes no sense that the police didnt open the door from the inside. Could it be possible that the lock locked when the door closed, but could also be locked from outside, in which case one would need a key to open it and could not open it throught the open window? That would explain the police forcing the door,
Cheers,
IchabodCrane

[Fleetwood Mac]

Does anyone want to comment on the idea that he may have used damp clothes as a means to put the fire out and not draw attention through a lit room?

I haven't seen this suggestion in the past, but in my view it makes far more sense than lighting a fire.

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman,
But Then it makes no sense that the police didnt open the door from the inside.

The Police didn't open the door. The Police (Insp. Beck) sealed the court to all persons. Which means everybody was assembled out in the street, except the Police, Dr. Phillips & McCarthy, along with any residents who were still inside there rooms.
Apparently McCarthy wasn't aware that the key had been previously lost so wasn't aware that the tennents unlocked the door from the broken window.
This means of opening the door came from Barnett in his interview with the police much later.
It was McCarthy who broke into No.13 with a sledgehammer or pick, according to press reports.
I don't know when Barnett showed up at Dorset St., but even then he would have been out in the street with everyone else. The decision to open the door rested with those inside the court.

Could it be possible that the lock locked when the door closed, but could also be locked from outside, in which case one would need a key to open it and could not open it throught the open window? That would explain the police forcing the door,
Cheers,
IchabodCrane

Certainly you could lock the door from the outside with a key. The 'auto' latch only meant you had the option of how to lock the door. The use of a key to lock it didn't mean you had to use a key to open it.
The lock is still only a spring lock, which means the spring closes the latch. The latch can still be defeated (opened) from the inside, as with any lock.

Does anyone want to comment on the idea that he may have used damp clothes as a means to put the fire out and not draw attention through a lit room?

I haven't seen this suggestion in the past, but in my view it makes far more sense than lighting a fire.

So, you think there was a fire in the room before Kelly was killed, but that the killer attempted to dampen the fire, kill off any source of light, before he mutilated her?

[Fleetwood Mac]

So, you think there was a fire in the room before Kelly was killed, but that the killer attempted to dampen the fire, kill off any source of light, before he mutilated her?

Just posing an option.

In my mind, it's more likely than the killer cracking up a fire.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
We can be sure of two assumptions.
1] The damage to the kettle occured that night/morning.
Why... Maria Harvey allegedly had breakfast in that room on the thursday morning, and would have mentioned any damage to the kettle
2] Kellys fuel reserves would have been found out, ie.. did she have the means to even start a fire?, and what it consisted of.
As for the killer throwing damp clothing on the fire to distinquish it, I would suggest not.
First of all if we believe Coxs version, then she was not wearing the jacket or bonnet at midnight, so they would not have been wet...
If we believe Praters version, then she was wearing her jacket and bonnet, so they would have been damp, however bang goes the reliability of Blotchy existing..
If cox was right, then her crossover would have been wet, but that was not burnt, it was found intact in her room. and Maxwell saw her wrapped in it [ allegedly ] on friday morning,
As for the key.
I find it rather dumb of the police not to have attempted to open the locked door from inside, when a entry hole presented itself, but apparently they didnt, and a pickaxe was required.
I also find it very convenient that access to the room occured, after the key was lost? rather convenient.
one more point about the clothing burnt, Mrs Harvey claimed other[ dry] clothing was missing, so would have added fuel , which would have been the opposite to what the killer had in mind surely...
Regards Richard.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Richard,

Indeed, one of the most enduring of all the baffling things about MJK's demise is that business about the the opening of the door via breaking and entering. A quick look at the scenario..

1. The first to see the body, through the broken window, moved the material hanging in front of the broken window to one side in order to do so.

2. He runs off, tells his employer. who comes back and does the same in order to see the body on the bed.

3. Off one trots, bringing back a policeman or two who do exactly the same thing, in order to verify the story he has been told.

4. After that, it is clear that various people, doctors and policemen included, educated felows, do exactly the same thing as well.

Now let us consider the broken window and what happened to the key. With the key apparently lost, both Barnett and Kelly used to get into the room by way of reaching through the broken pane and unlatching the lock on the door from the inside. Not worldly wise people by any means these two, but bright enough to work out a way of entering the premises.

Not so our intrepid band that gathered on the morning of the 9th of November and waited quietly. Not Abberline, not Arnold, not any number of doctors, not one policeman in an ever growing bunch, not even a photographer. Nope. Nobody. Absolutely nobody apparently realised that the very same broken window that was used for viewing the body and the room, door included, could be reached into a short distance in order to open the door.
Now, it doesnt take an awful lot of intelligence to work it out. Practical intelligence. And excuse me for mentioning this, but if word from Bowyer and Co was that they KNEW the key was missing, then as Landlord Bowyer would want to know how to get in there without destruction of his own property, wouldn't he?

Now, re the missing key. If Bowyer knew, and Barnett knew, and Kelly knew that it was missing, one could also assume that any guest staying there would have been made aware of it too. Two of her female friends apparently did this very thing. Stayed there. So.. err.. how many people would know HOW to open the door by reaching through the broken window?

And yet NOBODY suggested it, or even thought of it. The mighty intelligence of the gathering Police force didn't, the brilliant minds of the Doctors and the police surgeon that gathered that morning couldn't work it out. Neither apparently, could the man who owned the room. Not one neighbour told the police either whilst they waited. Nobody knew. Not even the waiting photographer. But I'll wager they ALL looked through the window, ALL moved the hanging material to one side to take a butcher's at the mess in that room. ( NB:- Butcher's hook.. cockney rhyming slang for "take a look"). So they stood around on a cold morning clicking their heels, one and all. Perhaps they needed more time to work it out....

Then when given the OK, that some bloodhounds which were ordered were NOT turning up, they break the door down with a pick-axe or the like.

That Richard, I find almost unbelievable. A series of circumstances that lead the answer to the locked door right (literally) in front of their faces, yet they don't see it. Not one person. Everyone who was there. Incredulous, some would call it.

best wishes

Phil

[Archaic]

Casebook Dissertation Addressing Pertinent Points

Hi everyone.

I recently re-read an excellent Casebook dissertation that discusses many of the issues raised in this thread, including whether the key to Mary's room was really lost and whether John McCarthy had a key of his own.

It offers a very plausible theory as to why McCarthy allowed Mary to fall so far behind in her rent, and how this may relate to the fact that there was a slight delay before McCarthy went to the police station that morning. It also offers a good theory as to why McCarthy didn't choose to offer his own key to the police, or to reach through the broken window and open the door for them.

The dissertation offers a lot of food for thought and gave me some new ideas regarding what may have happened that morning.

It's by Don Souden and is titled 'Time Is On My Side'.

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rn-time-is-on-my-side.html

Best regards,
Archaic

[The Grave Maurice]

Interesting points, gentlemen. The kettle and door have always troubled me, too.

Richard, I'm not quite sure why you conclude that the kettle had to be damaged on the morning of MJK's death. The damage could have been done much earlier. Perhaps Maria brought her own kettle, perhaps they didn't have tea on that particular day, perhaps there was a brand new kettle, but JtR put MJK's heart in it for easy transport. Who knows? In any event, I can't see clothing of any sort producing enough heat to melt solder.

Phil, I like your thinking about the door. Why didn't someone simply reach in and unlock it? You could probably get an article out of this question by expanding on your last post.

[Phil Carter]

Hello GM,

Thank you indeed. It was written in haste here in the middle of the night, so replace a Bowyer or two with a McCarthy... and there you go.
As regards an article, it will have to be on the back burner with about 10 others....one is in the pipeline for publication after a few tweaks here and there.
Besides, the idea (above) is out in the public domain now. I'll claim ownership if no-one else doesn't..lol

Hello Archaic,

Yes indeed, Don has presented that dissertation really well. Of course, there is a degree of supposition, but I like that. As long as it produces logical reasoning, I have no problem. I have read this before and have it in the back of my mind. THE most interesting thing with the article is the sudden realisation of the USE of the back window of the shop having a clear view of No.13's door. And I don't mean to count the customers either. Much food for thought there. Thanks for the reminder.

best wishes

Phil

[Supe]

Grave One,

Richard, I'm not quite sure why you conclude that the kettle had to be damaged on the morning of MJK's death.

I would presume Richard came to that conclusion because Abberline said at the inquest that the fire had melted the spout off the kettle and the evidence for that may have been as compelling as the "trout in the milk."

And unless Abberline was totally incompetent, he probably had good reason for his statement. That is, the spout was found in close proximity to the kettle and just where you might expect it if the solder had melted; there also may have been fresh streaks or other indications of recently melted solder. Moreover, while there are still uses for a spoutless kettle, there is little reason besides sentiment to keep a superfluous spout--and even then it would likely not be stored among the ashes of a fire.

Remember as well that the various solders have low melting points, especially the cheap sort likely to be used by Mary, and any fire in a fireplace will generate a lot more heat than we might expect. And kettles with soldered spouts are particularly vulnerable once the water within has boiled away.

Don.

[The Grave Maurice]

Fair enough, Donald. It's been a while since I read your "Time Is On My Side" piece (and longer still since I listened to the song). I'll try to have a go at both tomorrow. Although, I notice that you used "may" in your post nearly as often as I used "perhaps" in mine. I'm not convinced that Abberline's testimony at the inquest can actually help with this issue; but, as I say, the kettle has only provided questions for me, not answers.

[Roy Corduroy]

Almanac



Richard, this could assist your reckoning. The moon, the sunrise and all.

Roy

[Archaic]

McCarthy's Shop Window

THE most interesting thing with the article is the sudden realisation of the USE of the back window of the shop having a clear view of No.13's door. And I don't mean to count the customers either. Much food for thought there. Thanks for the reminder.

Hi Phil. I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

McCarthy's shop presumably had more then one window, and being the landlord I'm sure he tried to keep an eye on all of his rental units. But then again McCarthy was running a chandler's shop, selling candles, victuals, etc, as well as keeping his rental accounts for Miller's Court and other business investments, so he couldn't sit looking out the window all day. Mary's apartment was visible through the back window of his shop, but my guess is that a shop owner is more often facing the front of his shop where the customers enter than the back of it.

The various shop windows would have given McCarthy a general idea of the daytime and evening activity around his rental units, and I'm sure all his tenants knew this. I would venture to guess that the tenants knew the landlord's daily habits, and they knew his. If McCarthy was truly taking percentages from some of his tenants' earnings from prostitution, knowing that the landlord might have been watching one's doorway at some point during the evening would certainly have been a deterrent to bilking him of one's earnings- as would the threat of eviction for being in arrears.

Being a busy man with a family, McCarthy probably slept during the night- unlike certain of his tenants, who conducted business during those hours. So while McCarthy did have a view of Mary's apartment from his shop's back window, that basically gave him a sporadic overview of the area around her door during shop hours- I certainly don't think that amounted to 24-hour surveillance!

Mary had gone out looking for clients fairly early on the evening of Thursday Nov. 8th. McCarthy might have seen Mary go out at 9-10 PM or so. He might reasonably have concluded that she would earn some money that night. It would therefore make sense for McCarthy to make a mental note to send Bowyer round in the morning to collect those earnings before Mary had a chance to go out and spend them.

That being said, I think it highly unlikely that McCarthy or anyone else was actively "watching" Mary Kelly's door at 2 AM.

Best regards,
Archaic