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  • Toilets in Millers Court

    When the Old Bailey records appeared online I was intrigued by part of the Kitty Ronan trial transcript where a policeman produces his map of the crime scene and I thought 'Hey, I wouldn't half mind seeing that'. Lo and behold this map has just surfaced in the excellent new book Whitechapel and District by M. W. Oldridge and it shows 4 toilets facing 13 Millers Court. This is at odds with the Goad Maps which have the toilets at the back of the court. Could the newly discovered 1909 map be simply wrong or could the toilets have been moved?

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    allisvanityandvexationofspirit

  • #2
    Stephen,

    That has always been where the dust bin was, but that didn't seem right to me because of where the tap was. The tap by all rights should have been next to the toilets. If you have posted is correct, it makes more sense. Toilets have been very close to each site with the exception of MItre Square. In that case, I don't know where they would have been, though the abandoned housing seems a likely place for a casual use.

    Toilets seem to be the ideal hiding place.

    Mike
    huh?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by The Good Michael View Post
      Stephen,

      That has always been where the dust bin was, but that didn't seem right to me because of where the tap was. The tap by all rights should have been next to the toilets. If you have posted is correct, it makes more sense. Toilets have been very close to each site with the exception of MItre Square. In that case, I don't know where they would have been, though the abandoned housing seems a likely place for a casual use.

      Toilets seem to be the ideal hiding place.

      Mike
      Very interesting ! -and because of the position of the taps, as you say Mike (although the tap was hidden by an apron in Hanbury).

      Where were the toilets in Bucks Row ? At the back of the yard ? Do we know this for sure ?
      http://youtu.be/GcBr3rosvNQ

      Comment


      • #4
        Interesting, I haven't got Mark's book yet but hoping to get it soon.
        The water tap marked on this map looks is in a different position to where I always thought it was going by other illustrations of Miller's Court.
        Nice view #11/12 had out of the side window!

        Comment


        • #5
          Ah, this is a map of the first floor #12, and the window overlooked the roof of the toilets..yeah? No wonder I couldn't see an entrance either! duh

          Comment


          • #6
            Debra,

            Whoever was at 12 could see over the top of the WCs and if was very careful, could peer into Kelly's window.

            Reminds me of Hitchcock.

            Mike
            huh?

            Comment


            • #7
              James Tully reproduced a plan of Millers Court for his book.
              He also references The Daily Telegraph, Nov. 12, 1888 for a contemporary plan, if anyone can access a copy of the original newspaper page.
              The Press Reports section here on Casebook unfortunately does not include photo's which accompanied the articles.

              Here, orientated 90 deg from the pic posted in post #1, is Tully's rendition, which includes some chicken scratches from myself in trying to dimension the plan.


              Courtesy, Prisoner 1167, The Madman who was Jack the Ripper, Tully, 1998, p. 360.

              Regards, Jon S.
              Regards, Jon S.

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi Stephen,

                Wonderful find there!!!

                I think they must have been added on afterwards, for several reasons.

                Even if we ignore the 1888 reports and Goads which place 3 toilets at the bottom of the court, then the map shows that the 'passage' running alongside No. 13 should be a pump yard and not a passage. The pump yard would actually fill the space that is occupied by the passage and the four WCs exactly, which is a bit too coincedental. And the tap is in a different place, as Debs rightly pointed out. The old pump doesn't seem to be there at all.

                Best guess, they moved the toilets, or added the new ones in that position because that was where a new water source was laid. Why they might have moved them is anybodies guess, but it could have been that the ones at the other end were over a cesspit and not main drainage I suppose. By 1909 having a pump instead of a standing water pipe might well have been considered unacceptable and they put the court on main drainage. The easiest place by far would be to have the toilets and tap near the entrance to the court, because the pipe could be run off of the main water pipe running under Dorset Street.

                Just one small point there doesn't seem to be a door into No 11. How the doodah did they get into the room? Mind you how did the occupant of No 12 get upstairs? There doesn't seem to be a door at the bottom of the staircase. The only possible place for a door in No 11 seems to be where the bed is, unless it was between the table and the bed and just isn't marked.

                And we thought that No 13 was puzzling.

                Hugs

                Janie

                xxxxx
                I'm not afraid of heights, swimming or love - just falling, drowning and rejection.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by The Good Michael View Post
                  Debra,

                  Whoever was at 12 could see over the top of the WCs and if was very careful, could peer into Kelly's window.

                  Reminds me of Hitchcock.

                  Mike
                  Mike, perhaps they prefered looking into Prater's room though...less neck strain!

                  Wasn't Henry Hanslope living at that house in Feb 89? Wonder if he was there in Nov 88? Don't know if anyone else remembers discussion about him though.

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                  • #10
                    Yes Debra I remember the discussion of Henry Hanslope. If I recall you found this Miller Court resident had priors for violent acts. - Roy
                    Sink the Bismark

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Surely the door to no 11 is under the window in the court for no 12. I suspect access to 12 was via 11.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The only thing I remember about Hanslope is that we wondered if his face was blotchy.

                        Mike
                        huh?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi Letchmere,

                          Duh! My brain went on holiday this morning and hasn't got back yet. You're quite right. The door to No 11 should be under the window of No 12. I was forgetting that was the upstairs! I wouldn't mind, but I've actually painted No 11s door at least four times! (Not the actual door you understand I'm not that old just on canvas. Lol).

                          Mind you, looking where the staircase is situated in the room, does that mean that the residents of No 12 had to walk right through No. 11 to get up there? I can't see that there could be a passage, as there just isn't room. That could be a bit awkward!

                          Hugs

                          Janie


                          xxxxx
                          I'm not afraid of heights, swimming or love - just falling, drowning and rejection.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            One time in Dublin, I rented a room at a hostel. In order to get to another room via stairs, people had to go through my room. Consequently, I left my things in the safe.

                            Mike
                            huh?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Roy Corduroy View Post
                              Yes Debra I remember the discussion of Henry Hanslope. If I recall you found this Miller Court resident had priors for violent acts. - Roy
                              Yes, well remembered, Roy.
                              One assault on his mother (who died Oct 88), death threat on his wife, threatened suicide, a sexual assault charge that was thrown out, and two seperate charges for trying to pass himself off as a plain clothes detective.

                              He was also the cousin of Frank Hogg, father of Phoebe (Tiggy) Hogg, victim of Mary Peacery...not that being someone's cousin is a crime.

                              Jane, I commented about the door too after I realised that it was a plan of the first floor. At first I thought it was the ground floor and the window looked into the toilets!!

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