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  • #31
    Just to clarify, Jake has the toilets at the far end of the court and dustbins outside room 13

    There was a report of scavengers in the bins in the early hours of 9/11/88 which I always took to be those outside room 13

    The map posted by Stephen shows WCs which I would have thought putting next to the source of drinking/washing water would not be advisable

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    • #32
      The yard would have been wider as the toilets weren't there in 1888. Presumably - but I think I know how to find out exactly when they were built.
      This pictire is from a good perspective and it shows that a lurker on the other side of Miller's Court and on the other side of Dorset Street would have no idea that Kelly had been gaining access via the broken window.

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      • #33
        Hi Lechmere

        I'm not sure what you mean by the other side of Millers Court, but if I may just repeat that the broken window could be seen from any dwelling on the left hand side of the court, and from the toilets in the "old" position

        Here's a quote from the Daily Telegraph 10/11/88

        "From some of these premises, on the left-hand side of the court, it is possible to secure a view, in a diagonal direction, of the larger window, and also the doorway belonging to the room tenanted by the deceased"

        Note that there is a view of the larger window from the court, never mind the smaller one

        Also, someone even across the road in Dorset St would still have a chance to spy that Kelly went around the corner to open the door as there was good light at that spot, and any person at that spot would be framed by the archway

        Outside Mary's room near the pump is a prime spot for a peeping Tom / lurker I would have thought

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Nemo View Post
          Outside Mary's room near the pump is a prime spot for a peeping Tom / lurker I would have thought
          This is true, but we should remember that it is a fairly small space - anyone lurking there would be seen, illuminated by the light opposite #13, and Miller's Court seems to have been a far from quiet place.

          The position of the water tap next to the toilets may not be particularly hygienic by our standards, but 1888 was only 30 years after the cause of the spread of cholera was first posited (and disputed for many years after), and it is not hard to see that such ideas of cleanliness had yet to spread to the poorer and more rough areas of the city.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by DrHopper View Post
            Excellent find Mr Stephen Thomas sor.

            I just wanted to politely point out that this map was found by Mark Ripper and used in his new book, Whitechapel and District by M. W. Oldridge as Stephen said in his first post.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Debra A View Post
              I just wanted to politely point out that this map was found by Mark Ripper and used in his new book, Whitechapel and District by M. W. Oldridge as Stephen said in his first post.
              Indeed. My Mistake. Props to Mark Ripper instead.

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              • #37
                "Dustbin" As Euphemism For "Privy"

                Originally posted by DrHopper View Post
                . Also, perhaps the 'dustbin' described as being in this area, is, given Victorian sensibilities, a euphemism of sorts?
                Hi everyone.

                Dr. Hopper, you are correct, "Dustbin" was often a Victorian euphemism for "privy". I've even seen professional health journals that call them "dustbins", then go on to describe how a child-size seat should be fitted over the adult seat so children don't fall in!

                Houses also had real "dustbins", which contained ashes from the fireplace as well as household refuse, so it can be confusing.

                Once the early flush-toilets called "water-closets" came into use the old euphemism "dustbin" began to decline in usage. However the euphemism "dustbin" would naturally have lasted longer in the more economically-deprived areas, as they would have been the last to see flush-toilets; many not until the 20th C.

                Best regards,
                Archaic

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                • #38
                  Poor Hygiene

                  Originally posted by DrHopper View Post
                  The position of the water tap next to the toilets may not be particularly hygienic by our standards, but 1888 was only 30 years after the cause of the spread of cholera was first posited (and disputed for many years after), and it is not hard to see that such ideas of cleanliness had yet to spread to the poorer and more rough areas of the city.
                  This photograph shows a woman getting water from a pump located next to a privy (the recessed area behind her) and a row of metal trash bins. Can you guess what year it was taken?

                  1931.

                  Best regards,
                  Archaic
                  Attached Files

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                  • #39
                    Great photograph Archaic. I think we all tend to forget that conditions were very different until very recently. I know people in their early 50s who grew up in the slums of Manchester, England, and who, prior to be being re-housed, bathed in tin baths in their kitchen with water heated on a coal stove, and who shared an outside toilet with several other families. That was only in the late 1950s/early 1960s. And throughout England, lots of terraced inner city housing still has an outside toilet in the back yard (though 99.9% of housing in this country now has indoor toilets). Amazing when you think about it, what we take for granted.

                    I think we may begin to change our picture of the layout of Miller's Court. Opposite #13 were a series of privies, rather than a dustbin proper.

                    Not sure this changes much, but having a clearer picture is no bad thing.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by DrHopper View Post
                      I think we may begin to change our picture of the layout of Miller's Court. Opposite #13 were a series of privies, rather than a dustbin proper.

                      Not sure this changes much, but having a clearer picture is no bad thing.
                      Indeed DrH

                      Apart from being a great read, Mark's book has a superb selection of illustrations but these two stood out as I also have a particular interest in the layout of 26 Dorset Street and Millers Court. Mark's map from 1909 shows 4 toilets outside the windows of #13 (nice view) and what was the courtyard reduced to a passageway. Rob's illustration, also new, shows that the toilets were already there in 1898 so they had to have been built in the 1890s.

                      Click image for larger version

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                      allisvanityandvexationofspirit

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                      • #41
                        Hi Stephen

                        I suppose the question needs to be asked - when were they built?
                        If, in 1878, the toilets were at the northern end (if they were at the southern end as well then they too would have been mentioned in the report) and in 1898 they are at southern end, at what stage did they move? I would tend toward suggesting pre-1888, if we take dustbin as a euphemism.
                        Lechmere, you suggested that you may be able to pin down a date - any luck?
                        Either way - both the plan and the sketch are very valuable resources. As soon as i can get my computer back up and running with the relevant files, I shall upload the survey plan of Miller's Court I have been working on, as well as the extended post-1888 history of the place that I started in another thread.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Nemo View Post
                          Stephen, what was the date of the Goad map(s) used to produce the layout in the definitive documentary please?
                          Hi Nemo

                          1890. The magnificent Mr Clack has kindly posted all the relevant Goad Maps on his individual forum on Howard's site.

                          http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=7262&page=3

                          Hi DrH

                          As you can see from the map on the link above, the toilets were at the back of the court in 1890.
                          allisvanityandvexationofspirit

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                          • #43
                            I'm going to check tomorrow although the relevant record may not be there.

                            I meant that someone in Dorset Street wouldn't be able to see. They may see her go round the corner, but would hardly guess, I would submit, that she was going round the corner to shove her hand through the window and pull back the bolt.

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                            • #44
                              Just noticed something in the demolition photograph (here - http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=1755) The etching on the right shows what appears to be the tap with a bucket and a washboard standing up (extreme bottom left). The tap as been moved in the 1909 plan - obviously to make way for the toilet block. This toilet block can, with the eye of faith, be seen in the demolition photographs themselves - the bottom left and corner of the blue square in the middle photograph touches what appears to be a pitched roof. The location is sound, and the dimensions would fit nicely.

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                              • #45
                                I checked the records and there is nothing for Miller's Court - found some others for Dorset Street which I'll put up elsewhere.

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