Toilets in Millers Court

[DrHopper]

Hi Stephen

I suppose the question needs to be asked - when were they built?
If, in 1878, the toilets were at the northern end (if they were at the southern end as well then they too would have been mentioned in the report) and in 1898 they are at southern end, at what stage did they move? I would tend toward suggesting pre-1888, if we take dustbin as a euphemism.
Lechmere, you suggested that you may be able to pin down a date - any luck?
Either way - both the plan and the sketch are very valuable resources. As soon as i can get my computer back up and running with the relevant files, I shall upload the survey plan of Miller's Court I have been working on, as well as the extended post-1888 history of the place that I started in another thread.

[Stephen Thomas]

I think we may begin to change our picture of the layout of Miller's Court. Opposite #13 were a series of privies, rather than a dustbin proper.

Not sure this changes much, but having a clearer picture is no bad thing.

Indeed DrH

Apart from being a great read, Mark's book has a superb selection of illustrations but these two stood out as I also have a particular interest in the layout of 26 Dorset Street and Millers Court. Mark's map from 1909 shows 4 toilets outside the windows of #13 (nice view) and what was the courtyard reduced to a passageway. Rob's illustration, also new, shows that the toilets were already there in 1898 so they had to have been built in the 1890s.

[DrHopper]

Great photograph Archaic. I think we all tend to forget that conditions were very different until very recently. I know people in their early 50s who grew up in the slums of Manchester, England, and who, prior to be being re-housed, bathed in tin baths in their kitchen with water heated on a coal stove, and who shared an outside toilet with several other families. That was only in the late 1950s/early 1960s. And throughout England, lots of terraced inner city housing still has an outside toilet in the back yard (though 99.9% of housing in this country now has indoor toilets). Amazing when you think about it, what we take for granted.

I think we may begin to change our picture of the layout of Miller's Court. Opposite #13 were a series of privies, rather than a dustbin proper.

Not sure this changes much, but having a clearer picture is no bad thing.

[Archaic]

Poor Hygiene

The position of the water tap next to the toilets may not be particularly hygienic by our standards, but 1888 was only 30 years after the cause of the spread of cholera was first posited (and disputed for many years after), and it is not hard to see that such ideas of cleanliness had yet to spread to the poorer and more rough areas of the city.

This photograph shows a woman getting water from a pump located next to a privy (the recessed area behind her) and a row of metal trash bins. Can you guess what year it was taken?

1931.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Archaic]

"Dustbin" As Euphemism For "Privy"

. Also, perhaps the 'dustbin' described as being in this area, is, given Victorian sensibilities, a euphemism of sorts?

Hi everyone.

Dr. Hopper, you are correct, "Dustbin" was often a Victorian euphemism for "privy". I've even seen professional health journals that call them "dustbins", then go on to describe how a child-size seat should be fitted over the adult seat so children don't fall in!

Houses also had real "dustbins", which contained ashes from the fireplace as well as household refuse, so it can be confusing.

Once the early flush-toilets called "water-closets" came into use the old euphemism "dustbin" began to decline in usage. However the euphemism "dustbin" would naturally have lasted longer in the more economically-deprived areas, as they would have been the last to see flush-toilets; many not until the 20th C.

Best regards,
Archaic

[DrHopper]

I just wanted to politely point out that this map was found by Mark Ripper and used in his new book, Whitechapel and District by M. W. Oldridge as Stephen said in his first post.

Indeed. My Mistake. Props to Mark Ripper instead.

[Debra A]

Excellent find Mr Stephen Thomas sor.

I just wanted to politely point out that this map was found by Mark Ripper and used in his new book, Whitechapel and District by M. W. Oldridge as Stephen said in his first post.

[DrHopper]

Outside Mary's room near the pump is a prime spot for a peeping Tom / lurker I would have thought

This is true, but we should remember that it is a fairly small space - anyone lurking there would be seen, illuminated by the light opposite #13, and Miller's Court seems to have been a far from quiet place.

The position of the water tap next to the toilets may not be particularly hygienic by our standards, but 1888 was only 30 years after the cause of the spread of cholera was first posited (and disputed for many years after), and it is not hard to see that such ideas of cleanliness had yet to spread to the poorer and more rough areas of the city.

[Nemo]

Hi Lechmere

I'm not sure what you mean by the other side of Millers Court, but if I may just repeat that the broken window could be seen from any dwelling on the left hand side of the court, and from the toilets in the "old" position

Here's a quote from the Daily Telegraph 10/11/88

"From some of these premises, on the left-hand side of the court, it is possible to secure a view, in a diagonal direction, of the larger window, and also the doorway belonging to the room tenanted by the deceased"

Note that there is a view of the larger window from the court, never mind the smaller one

Also, someone even across the road in Dorset St would still have a chance to spy that Kelly went around the corner to open the door as there was good light at that spot, and any person at that spot would be framed by the archway

Outside Mary's room near the pump is a prime spot for a peeping Tom / lurker I would have thought

[Lechmere]

The yard would have been wider as the toilets weren't there in 1888. Presumably - but I think I know how to find out exactly when they were built.
This pictire is from a good perspective and it shows that a lurker on the other side of Miller's Court and on the other side of Dorset Street would have no idea that Kelly had been gaining access via the broken window.

[Nemo]

Just to clarify, Jake has the toilets at the far end of the court and dustbins outside room 13

There was a report of scavengers in the bins in the early hours of 9/11/88 which I always took to be those outside room 13

The map posted by Stephen shows WCs which I would have thought putting next to the source of drinking/washing water would not be advisable

[DrHopper]

Excellent find Mr Stephen Thomas sor.
The physical attributes of Miller's Court has been an obsession of mine for a few years (when i have the time to research it that is), and a number of important issues are raised here.
Firstly, the new diagram answers a few questions regarding the internal layout of the houses- I have often wondered just how the upper floors were reached, obviously via internal stairs, but the where and what have now been answered. We now have internal dimensions (12' x 12' x 8') and an internal plan. Marvellous.
Re: the location of the toilets. The Whitechapel Board of Works Annual Report for 1878 (here http://www.casebook.org/victorian_lo...court1878.html) reports that the toilets are at the north end (i.e. the opposite end from #13), and yet the 1909 map shows clearly they are at the southern end. Also, The Viper's dossier on Miller's Court (here http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...erdossier.html) notes that there is a privy at the southern end, perhaps where they are marked in the 1909 plan. I am unable to lay my hands on my files at the moment to say from where he derived this information, but it rings vague bells.
These privies are not toilets as we know them - there is no plumbing per se, rather, a hole in a plant of wood and which is suspended over a container. The lack of plumbing means they are movable in a sense - their location is not dictated by pipes and construction. Thus, both descriptions could be correct - the toilets could have been in the north in 1878 and in the south in 1888, perhaps housed in the brick construction shown in the new illustration. This makes sense as it would be next to the water pipe, and allows us to understand the description given in several contemporary sources of the last rooms on the left being used as a storage area. Also, perhaps the 'dustbin' described as being in this area, is, given Victorian sensibilities, a euphemism of sorts?
Finally (and apologies for the length of the post). Because of the lack of plumbing in the toilets, the container had to be emptied regularly by the 'night soil' man. Someone who almost certainly would have reported something suspicious (large bloody knife, top hat, Gladstone bag, etc), but is unlikely, for obvious reasons, to have mentioned a bloody rag, etc. I feel sure, though, that the police would have searched the privies for clues.

[Rubyretro]

QUOTE] When in doubt look here: http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=64[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

Thanks for this ! fascinating..lots of food for thought !

[Nemo]

A person in the entrance to the toilets at the previous position at the end of the court would have a good view of the broken window in No.13, and also anyone in one of the houses on the left when they looked out of their window, ground or first floor

I suspect a passage in No.s 11/12 from front to back of the ground floor, with a door to the stairs in the rear left corner

The sketch has increased the distance between the bottom of the stairs(+door) to the wall adjoining the toilets

However, there is the possibility that originally each "house" was one dwelling and the stairs were indeed at the rear of the ground floor room

I've seen this arrangement previously

Stephen, what was the date of the Goad map(s) used to produce the layout in the definitive documentary please?

The brick building for the dustbins does look like that in the doc created by Jake with a door at left facing the court

This looks like a bad arrangement to me as the dustbins must have been very small to allow passage along the length of the dustbin room or there was one or two bins at the end of the room, which seems like a waste of space

What would Victorian brick-built dustbins look like? Are there any similar structures existing today?

We used to have coal cum dustbin sheds on our street to serve a number of flats, though these were quite wide and spacious

[Debra A]

Interesting point. But wouldn't that also be true of the people in #3/4 and (maybe) #1/2?

Yes, I agree, probably one or both of those houses could see MJK's window and might have seen the 'window trick' to open the door latch being performed at some point. Just having a view of the door itself wouldn't give this away.

Roy, one day I will catch a message before you delete it!