The Broken Window

[curious4]

broken window 5

Me again! Been checking my JTR Sourcebook and according to the Daily Telegraph of 10/11/1888, the window was broken one week before the murder during the quarrel which caused Barnett to move out. I seem to remember that the key had been missing for some time before that, so presumably if they were opening the door through the window before it was broken they left it ajar.

Same article says that it was a spring lock which would lock when the door was closed if that is any help to the lock experts.

"Time and trouble will tame a headstrong young woman, but a headstrong old woman is uncontrollable by any earthly force" Dorothy Sayers

[harry]

Curious 4,
Like you I believe after the door was opened,all attention would have been focussed on the body.Barnetts explanation of reaching through the window would have been accepted,and little attention paid to the mechanics involved.
Of course it would not have been neccessary to leave the door ajar,in the time between losing the key,and the window being broken.The lower window piece could have been raised and lowered,or a wedge placed between the door edge and the jamb.Barnett never did say they had to reach through the broken pane.
One small bit of information seems to have been overlooked.And that is that Prater states the court to have been in complete darkness at 1.30AM.Would it have been otherwise at any time that night?

[Stephen Thomas]

When is a door not a door?

When it's a jar.

[Bob Hinton]

The Broken Window

Sorry I must have missed something - how do we know Barnett didn´t know about the supposed string? Not mentioning something doesn´t always mean that a person doesn´t know about it. Also I should think that the police had enough to think about when they saw the body and may well have thought that a piece of string was of no importance. After all, there wasn´t the careful examination of a crime scene as there is today.

I see so Barnett in answering the police about how he entered the room mentions reaching in through the broken window, but forgets to mention that it wasn't really necessary as they had a bit of string, and the police weren't really interested in methods of entry they just thought they talk to Barnett about it to pass the time.

And of course once the police enter the room no-one says "Hey whats that bit of string doing tied to the lock, someone could use that to enter the room?"

Of course the police carefully examined the crime scene, why on earth would you think they didn't?

[Bob Hinton]

The Broken Window

Me again! Been checking my JTR Sourcebook and according to the Daily Telegraph of 10/11/1888, the window was broken one week before the murder during the quarrel which caused Barnett to move out. I seem to remember that the key had been missing for some time before that, so presumably if they were opening the door through the window before it was broken they left it ajar.

Same article says that it was a spring lock which would lock when the door was closed if that is any help to the lock experts.

I earnestly suggest you read the boards before posting. Yes we know it was a spring lock that's why I went to great lengths to cover the subject in my book published in 1998.

MJK wouldn't leave the door ajar - open- but simply leave it on the latch, closed but not locked.

[Sally]

String

Hi All

I read the posts about the string with interest. It sounds good, doesn't it - yes of course! It seems much easier to have a piece of string attached to the lock: that way nobody has to put their arm through the window and risk cutting themselves on the broken glass.

But leaving aside the obvious point that it was not mentioned at the time - you would want to know why - I can't see it working. It would take some force to pull a piece of string to open the lock, even if the lock was of a type that made that possible.

If you were in that posiiton, trying to pull the lock open with a piece of string through the broken window; I bet it would be fiddly, to say the least. If the murderer had gained entrance that way, for the sake of argument, he (or she) would have been messing about for quite a while, I should think, running the risk of being caught.

I don't find that very plausible really. The other thing is, if you were standing there, fiddling about with the string, there's a good chance you'd end up catching it on the broken glass, which would probably sever it anyway.

It looks good on paper, but when you deconstruct it, it's a bit impractical I think.

[curious4]

broken window

Sorry, I wasn´t clear - when I said "it" I did mean the window and wedged or propped open was what I meant. Forgive the ramblings of an old lady!

As for the string at the crime scene it could well have been overlooked, I think, but also thrown on the fire with the rest of the things. If there was blood on the window it follows that the killer was fiddling around there...

Point taken Bob Hinton - I do have a tendency to skip through, will try to improve! Name of your book? I am building up a collection and would be interested in adding it next time I go on a buying spree.

[Bob Hinton]

Broken Glass

Hi All

I read the posts about the string with interest. It sounds good, doesn't it - yes of course! It seems much easier to have a piece of string attached to the lock: that way nobody has to put their arm through the window and risk cutting themselves on the broken glass.

But leaving aside the obvious point that it was not mentioned at the time - you would want to know why - I can't see it working. It would take some force to pull a piece of string to open the lock, even if the lock was of a type that made that possible.

If you were in that posiiton, trying to pull the lock open with a piece of string through the broken window; I bet it would be fiddly, to say the least. If the murderer had gained entrance that way, for the sake of argument, he (or she) would have been messing about for quite a while, I should think, running the risk of being caught.

I don't find that very plausible really. The other thing is, if you were standing there, fiddling about with the string, there's a good chance you'd end up catching it on the broken glass, which would probably sever it anyway.

It looks good on paper, but when you deconstruct it, it's a bit impractical I think.

Personally I think Sally has made some very viable points there.

I don't think there was any string device at all and I'll give my reasons.

First off to release the bolt from the door the bolt has to move from the door jamb to the hinge edge of the door, in other words if you are standing in front of the door the bolt has to move from your left to your right.

A piece of string going through the broken window to the bolt would in fact move it in the opposite direction, from right to left. Unless of course the piece of string was looped around something in the room and then attached to the bolt, something like a pulley.

But then we are moving into the realms of silliness, never mind Jack the Ripper you would probably strangle yourself everytime you went into the room.

I think the person who came up with this was confusing this incident with the old practice of leaving a key on a piece of string behind the letterbox, quite a common thing to do in days gone by. It was a simple method of letting people in who didn't have their own key.

But as to MJK doing something similar? No.

[Sally]

Of course!

Hi Bob

Thank you for posting that very succinct argument. I agree with the points you make and like the idea that the story about the string is confused with the practice of tying the string to the key - makes much more sense to me.

Best regards

Sally

[Chava]

The string story might be have arisen out of an old habit of attaching a string to a letter-slot in a front door in case someone forgets a key. When I was a kid in the fifties a lot of people did that, but then criminals caught on and so people stopped. It's possible people thought MJK might have done that, and so the story went into the story-pot with all the others.

As Sally has pointed out, a string accessed through the broken pane would be even less practical than reaching an arm through. In fact it would have all of the disadvantages of the reached arm and no advantages at all. Very yeasy to cut a string on a piece of jagged glass, and then where are you with your handy method of gaining ingress! The key and the the cut string are now on the floor and completely out of reach.

[harry]

The first thing to understand is that Barnett claimed that the door was opened by reaching through the window.You either have to believe that is what was done,or call Barnett a liar.If it is the latter,then some explanation needs to be given as to why Barnett would lie.I believe Barnett.
The String issue is only one of many explanations,but it is here being used as a red herring,in the sense that no string would imply no window access.
There were many types of locks,latches and catches in 1888.We do not know which one was used to secure the door.Release mechanism of the simple kind would take but seconds to operate,even allowing for care in respect of the broken glass.TEN seconds at the most.
The spring lock is a statement given in a paper.It is not quoted from official sources.The paper could have been guessing,they do not state their source.
Now don't take my word for the kind of object that was used to secure that particular door,and do not take anyone elses word.Scour the internet,go see a locksmith,but dont just guess,or accept that it could only have been a spring lock.

[Sally]

The String issue is only one of many explanations,but it is here being used as a red herring,in the sense that no string would imply no window access.

Hi Harry

I don't think that this is the case - at least not in my view. There is no reason to disbelieve Barnett - it's a reasonable explnation and does not appear to have been doubted at the time. I think it is clear that there was window access, string or not. I don't personally think there was a string. This is because:

1) There is no evidence for there having been a string - by which I mean that it was never mentioned in contemporary terms. The anecdotal story about the string is, as I understand it, after the fact.

2) A string would be impractical, for reasons given above.

We don't know who accessed the door through the window other than Barnett and Kelly. The killer might have obtained entry that way, but I don't think its possible to know. There are other possibilities which appear as likely.

Best regards

Sally

[richardnunweek]

Hello all,
Quote .'Mary had a string on the door, so anyone calling had no need to knock'.
We are all assuming that this infered that the string was tied to the bolt inside, and hung close to the window, but there is another explanation.
What if it simply meant, that if a visitor called and string was tied around the outer door knob, then one could come straight in, as someone was at home, however no string would mean that no one was at home, and the door would be locked, and after the key was lost,and the window was broken, entry could only be allowed by reaching through that window and slipping the bolt, not with the aid of string.
Regards Richard.

[Bob Hinton]

Oh really...

The string story might be have arisen out of an old habit of attaching a string to a letter-slot in a front door in case someone forgets a key. When I was a kid in the fifties a lot of people did that, but then criminals caught on and so people stopped. It's possible people thought MJK might have done that, and so the story went into the story-pot with all the others.
.

Does anyone read the posts here? This is an exact duplicate of what I posted only two posts previously!

[Bob Hinton]

Oh really...

Hello all,
Quote .'Mary had a string on the door, so anyone calling had no need to knock'.
We are all assuming that this infered that the string was tied to the bolt inside, and hung close to the window, but there is another explanation.
What if it simply meant, that if a visitor called and string was tied around the outer door knob, then one could come straight in, as someone was at home, however no string would mean that no one was at home, and the door would be locked, and after the key was lost,and the window was broken, entry could only be allowed by reaching through that window and slipping the bolt, not with the aid of string.
Regards Richard.

Richard why are you in the land of fantasy again? And I suppose if she hung her old school tie on the doorhandle it meant she was with a man and if it was her old school scarf it was a woman and if it was her diamond tiara it was that she was out!