The Cry of Oh Murder! - Why No Response?

[Suzi]

Exactly Robert!

A quick throttle and a slash in the old carotid......(with a stylish flourish to do a quick FM!!!!) would be enough to silence anyone!

[perrymason]

Hello again, Maybe I phrased myself incorrectly, but I'm not suggesting that Elizabeth heard anything that night, other than being woken by Diddles and "oh-murder". What I am saying is that Marys partition wall allowed Elizabeth the best ear vantage point to hear any noise at all coming from number 13...and she didn't. Like she wasn't woken by attack noises that she may well have been woken by. If Diddles wakes to the attack, then how do you explain "oh-murder" then silence? And how does "Oh-murder" get heard by anyone,... if from Marys room, ... without Marys door being open at the time? I think the evidence shows that Diddles was likely startled by a noise that was followed by a faintish cry and silence. That doesnt sound right for an attack commencement that results in defensive wounds being inflicted...surely a rickety bed on a creaky wooden floor would loudly announce an attack happening on its frame? Best regards. One last point on the happy wanderer theory...then why does he dis-engage the spring lock when leaving, so the door would lock behind him, if just a stranger wandering by..

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Paul,

And she says nothing about a nightmare.

Prater is recorded as having said so in the Morning Advertiser's account of the Inquest, printed on 13th November 1888. I am inclined to believe that she said precisely that, as the words attributed to her have an authentic whiff of colloquialism. In particular, the phrase "...had woke up with a nightmare" should, in correct English, have been "...had woken up from a nightmare".

[perrymason]

Hi Paul,Prater is recorded as having said so in the Morning Advertiser's account of the Inquest, printed on 13th November 1888. I am inclined to believe that she said precisely that, as the words attributed to her have an authentic whiff of colloquialism. In particular, the phrase "...had woke up with a nightmare" should, in correct English, have been "...had woken up from a nightmare".

Hi Sam, So, do we go with that version, or the Telegraphs version, of the 13th....which is "I fell asleep directly and slept soundly. A kitten disturbed me about half-past three o'clock or a quarter to four. As I was turning round I heard a suppressed cry of "Oh - murder!" in a faint voice. It seemed to proceed from the court." My best Sam as always, and an early gnite.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Sam, So, do we go with that version, or the Telegraphs version, of the 13th

I'd go with as many accounts as we can, Mike, and draw the most sensible conclusions we can - with caveats, of course. It pays to triangulate sometimes, as long as one doesn't get carried away.

One thing I've learned is that no one account can be taken as wholly accurate, and - much as some might recoil in horror - that goes for the inquest records as well as newspaper transcripts.

[paul emmett]

Prater is recorded as having said so in the Morning Advertiser's account of the Inquest, printed on 13th November 1888. I am inclined to believe that she said precisely that, as the words attributed to her have an authentic whiff of colloquialism. In particular, the phrase "...had woke up with a nightmare" should, in correct English, have been "...had woken up from a nightmare".

Hi Sam,

Yep, that's what it says, and you have to be right about the meaning too. Sorry. But what a differnce between the ADVERTISER'S account, and that in THE TIMES which Evans and Skinner use.
Michael, THE TIMES also says "near-by" instead of "from the court." THE ADVERTISER, says neither.

[Robert]

Hi Michael

When I said "throttle" earlier, I didn't mean literally strangle, just a quick hands round throat to keep her quiet and passive. Blood struck the wall in separate splashes. This wasn't a very efficient murder, surely.

It seems to me that if you reject the Jack the Wanderer idea, then you have to believe either

1. MJK was murdered by someone other than JTR

or

2. JTR accompanied MJK to her room, but instead of subduing her immediately, he deliberately waited for her to undress and lie down, and then he came at her with a knife and was obliged to cut her throat from the opposite side to what he'd been used to. To me, that sounds more like a killer gradually finding out the best way to kill, as if MJK was the first in the series instead of the last.

I go with
MJK killed
By Jack the Wanderer
In her room

Robert (Cluedo) Teaboy

[perrymason]

Hi all,

I like this "Clue" Version that you've started up Robert, Ill play....but let me first say that I agree with you Sam, read them all then using the cumulative data, see if there is a truth in there somewhere.

Since you've been brave enough Robert, I don't think it was Wandering Man in the Courtyard Room with Mary. The only feasible way a stranger gets in is if she left the lock "on" the latch before retiring, behind Blotchy's exit, so it was unlocked when closed. Since Elizabeth Prater still puts furniture in front of the door in her room in a house, and since we know Mary feared the news of Jack, then its not a stretch to imagine even drunk, she locks the door.

I believe it Known Man, being let in just after "oh-murder" is faintly called out by the rooms occupant, being woken from a drunken sleep. Thats around 3:45am. She shuffles back to bed, one stocking still on from when she passed out earlier taking them off, and she climbs back into the bed, and rolls to her right side, leaving room for her visitor. She falls asleep before he joins her, and when he does, everyone is back alseep, and he does it just like you suggest...suppressing a scream while cutting, which is far easier now with her asleep at the start.

After he finishes, which is a misnomer because there are many incompleted tasks still left unfinished, .... he started removing flesh from bone and then just stops for no reason,... he then leaves via the door, setting the latch "off" so it will lock behind him.

Voila...the closed room mystery.

What you say? All that mess and not be Jack The Ripper? Well, to my eye there at least 3 killers of street prostitutes around at the very same time.....someone kills the non-canonicals early in 1888, and someone cuts Alice up just like Jack who finishes his run in Millers Court apparently, and then we have one Torso in 1888, and one in 1889.

And unless I'm off on my stats, before Mary Kelly, Jack the Ripper is have thought to kill only middle aged street prostitutes who were working that same night for bed or booze. Seems a 26 year old woman drunk, fed and asleep in her underwear in her own bed doesn't really fit that type.

I cant use icons for some reason,...so know I'm smiling at the humor attempted, not smugly.

My best regards Robert, Sam, all.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mike,

And unless I'm off on my stats, before Mary Kelly, Jack the Ripper is have thought to kill only middle aged street prostitutes who were working that same night for bed or booze.

If Annie Chapman happened to mention to Jack that she had a private room just around the corner where he'd have more privacy, would he have allowed the opportunity to pass him by? Would he have spared Polly Nichols if she had been stone cold sober? If Catherine Eddowes had been 26 years old, would Jack have let her go? My answer to all three questions, sincerely and without prejudice, would have to be "no".

[Limehouse]

Perry,

You mention the torso 'murders' as being significant in relation to the other murders at that time and in that district, and I agree they must be considered, but we don't have any real evidence that the victims were killed locally or even that they were local women, do we?

They could have been non-local women, killed eslewhere and dumped by someone who had reason and opportunity to be in the district.

[perrymason]

Hi Mike,If Annie Chapman happened to mention to Jack that she had a private room just around the corner where he'd have more privacy, would he have allowed the opportunity to pass him by? Would he have spared Polly Nichols if she had been stone cold sober? If Catherine Eddowes had been 26 years old, would Jack have let her go? My answer to all three questions, sincerely and without prejudice, would have to be "no".

Before I address the above Sam, to answer your question Limehouse, I believe one at least was a local girl, but the point is not to show that other killers were killing only East End street prostitutes, just that there were indeed other killers capable of using a knife on street whores around aside from Jack.

On your questions Sam, as you know. we cannot know the answer to any of those questions, we are constricted by the lack of comparative data. All we do know is that he apparently did kill only east End Street whores that were middle aged, out on the streets after midnight, and likely trying to earn bed or booze money....until November 9th that is.

Thats when he chooses a mid twenties attractive woman, with two current simultaneous lovers, who (apparently) is in her bed asleep, in her own room, in a tiny courtyard off a busy rough street. Funny.... that if this works so well for him, whats the problem with continuing now indoors? He drowns? We know the police at the time didn't think so, Alice McKenzie caused a big fuss, Ripper style. Does that mean after having what many seem to think is the venue of a lifetime, he perhaps chooses to go back outdoors in the gaslight to kill next summer, as he did prior to Mary? Or just stops?

Neither are plausible. There were lots of little courts and too few police to guard them all. Then theres warehouses, abandoned buildings and houses, ....seems kind of odd that if he really wanted to kill indoors, he only does it once out of 5 times. When the opportunities were obviously there to move indoors at any time.

We know men killed street whores with knives that werent thought to be Jack, before and after the "spree", we know that at least one non-canonical victim is virtually identical in style and wounds to the Ripper attributed victims, and we know at least one other man at large that cuts women up completely.

We know Mary has two lovers, we know one is a closet asylum case at the moment, and we can assume by the accepted evidence of the activities of Mary Kelly and her room, that there was no one thought to have been seen with Mary Kelly after Blotchy Man 3 days after the original statement was given, that pointed to Mary being outside and with Astrakan.

I think this small section of the circumstantial pile is indicative of the rest, and shows that this is by no means a crime Jack the Ripper need have committed, and in fact there is no evidence other than conjecture that her killer killed 4 others first.


Best regards as always MR F.

[Suzi]

Hi Paul,Prater is recorded as having said so in the Morning Advertiser's account of the Inquest, printed on 13th November 1888. I am inclined to believe that she said precisely that, as the words attributed to her have an authentic whiff of colloquialism. In particular, the phrase "...had woke up with a nightmare" should, in correct English, have been "...had woken up from a nightmare".

You're getting into Nunnersmare -land !¬here Sammy!

[Suzi]

Hi Mike,If Annie Chapman happened to mention to Jack that she had a private room just around the corner where he'd have more privacy, would he have allowed the opportunity to pass him by? Would he have spared Polly Nichols if she had been stone cold sober? If Catherine Eddowes had been 26 years old, would Jack have let her go? My answer to all three questions, sincerely and without prejudice, would have to be "no".

EXACTLY Gareth.........'Come with me and you will be comfortable' would have been a nice prospect maybe 89.5% ish of the time 'eh .......Not quite sure where that un Suzi-ish % came from! But a point 'eh!


Come on PM you can't be looking at the girls like that!!!!!!! They were there and were sliced up by 'Jack' let's not try to get 'em into groups of attacka-likelies! ''Middle aged(!) drunken hags'' etc is rather dismissive of the women themselves ....they did live a life....dodgy at times though it might have been....it was still a life!

AND how do we know Mary had '2 Lovers '-I'm sure she was capable of 'fitting ' in a few even when she was living with Joe and after he left.......who knows..

[Sam Flynn]

Please note!

Hi Mike,If Annie Chapman happened to mention to Jack that she had a private room just around the corner where he'd have more privacy, would he have allowed the opportunity to pass him by? Would he have spared Polly Nichols if she had been stone cold sober? If Catherine Eddowes had been 26 years old, would Jack have let her go? My answer to all three questions, sincerely and without prejudice, would have to be "no".

I've just realised that this is a thread about the cry of "Oh, murder!". The discussion of Jack's choice of victim clearly does not belong on this thread.

I apologise for having inadvertently posted off-topic.

[Robert]

Hi Michael

Don't worry, I'm reasonably convinced that Mary was one of Jack's.

You suggest Jack knew her. This might seem attractive, because 8th-9th was I think only the second night she spent alone after the departure of Barnett.

But I think if Jack really knew her, he'd have nailed her in an alley some time in October.

That's if he was your kind of Jack, of course!

Robert