The Cry of Oh Murder! - Why No Response?

[DVV]

...and in Richard's scenario (reoccuring dream), it would have been : "Oh, murder again...!"

Seriously, the cry seems to have been heard by two women... I think it tells us the time of the attack.

Amitiés,
David

[DirectorDave]

Thanks David,

I just feel the dramatic slant to the cry is somewhat irrelevant especially in light of what you have said.

Just as a slight alternative I would have thought a good Catholic girl like Mary might have yelled "oh mother of god!"

Could the "Oh, murder" been a misheard, interrupted "Oh murther of gawd" with an Irish (or Welsh) twang?

lol perhaps not....but who knows?

[DVV]

Hi Dave,

not only the penny dreadfuls. In fact one encounters many "Murder!" in the press reports on the W murders.
Already in Tabram case (the Hewitts, I think, and also Mrs Reeves if I'm correct).
They said they heard such cries from the street almost daily.

Amitiés,
David

[DirectorDave]

"Oh, Murder" does sound staged.....but perhaps that’s where it came from.

Just like the phrases we use today like "Don't Panic" or "Were Doomed" they spread from entertainment of the day into our vocabulary in every day life.

Is it possible in the many plays and shows of the day "Oh, Murder" was a dramatic call on stage by the dying victim perhaps this transposed into the language of the time?

Perhaps someone can check if this phrase was also used in the "Penny dreadfuls" of the time?

People are people and if we nick things of the Telly or Films I think it is feasible to surmise that 1880's London folk would do the same.

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
Lets look at the form book...
Elizabeth Prater said at the inquest, the cry she heard was like 'Awaken from a nightmare'
The words used were said to have been 'Oh Murder'
Three years later the canadian reporter Kit Watkins interviewed a woman called Lottie who was then staying in room 13, [ in 1888 resided further down the court] and she said that she had known the dead woman, and remembered Kelly telling her that she had a nightmare that she was being murdered, and it had frightened her.
What words would you possible yell out if awakening from such a dream?
Well what about 'Oh Murder'.
Some nightmares especially horrific ones have a tendency to repeat themselves, so I would suggest that the cry out at 4am was precisely that, a reoccuring dream.
Leaving the morning scenerio wide open.
Regards Richard.

[Gman992]

Oh maybe someone came upon the body through the window? I don't know...if someone attacks me, the first instinct is to cry "HELP!"

That sounds a bit too "literary" for me, Mike. Unless you wish to suggest that Mary Kelly was somewhat above the occasional shout of "F***ing hell!", which I don't quite see either. What it doesn't explain is why there may have been more than one cry of "Murder", either - nor the description of a loud scream by Sarah Lewis. If there was a scream at all, then it was one of alarm, not surprise. Still less does it seem to resemble a mild reproach.

Hi Sam, Suz,

I will agree with you on that point heartily Sam, Im sure she could come out with some doozies when provoked and drunk. She was recently in court for a D & D that same Fall/Summer wasnt she?

Why I think this is different is the perhaps 2 hours of sleep she may have had, after being drunk and enteraining someone for over an hour. Its also around 3:45am. Right there are two reasons for a "faintish" cry, as heard by the woman in much closer proximity than Sarah Lewis, being in the far corner of the court at the Keylers, .....one is the time. If its not "Bloody Murder" then you might want to consider the neighbors, and if she knows the man but is annoyed at being woken, you have the context for the softer calling of "oh-murder".

I suspect that the reason Sarah thought it was louder was simple acoustics of the court, if Marys door was open, the voice would be amplified by the time it hits Sarah....and it would sound muffled if Elizabeth only hears it courtesy of the partition wall, allowing sounds to reach her from Marys room. How Liz hears it is an issue,....from a window in the court, or one facing Dorset, cause if its the one facing Dorset the voice could well have originated from the entrance to the archway to the court, and be heard by both.

My best regards youse two.

[Suzi]

That sounds a bit too "literary" for me, Mike. Unless you wish to suggest that Mary Kelly was somewhat above the occasional shout of "F***ing hell!", which I don't quite see either. What it doesn't explain is why there may have been more than one cry of "Murder", either - nor the description of a loud scream by Sarah Lewis. If there was a scream at all, then it was one of alarm, not surprise. Still less does it seem to resemble a mild reproach.

Sam!
I have always said that if I woke up in mi' nightie/chemise (NO NO NO!) to find a loonie with a knife a) standing over me or b) getting into bed with me The last thing that I would have thought to say was 'Oh Murder!'....as you say how literary!....More to the point Ooooooooooooooh F *** or get the F*** outta here........and take the key with you! ........would may........just may!(lol) HAVE BEEN MY FIRST RESPONSE!!!!

I suppose an Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggggggggggggggggggggh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Murrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrddddaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrr rrrrrrr may have been what Mrs P heard!! Yep BUT I doubt she'd have gone back to sleep after that Dids or no Dids! hmmmmmmmmmm

[Sam Flynn]

In this case I believe it was , open the door, see whos there, "oh-murder"....Im sleeping, what are you doing here now?

That sounds a bit too "literary" for me, Mike. Unless you wish to suggest that Mary Kelly was somewhat above the occasional shout of "F***ing hell!", which I don't quite see either. What it doesn't explain is why there may have been more than one cry of "Murder", either - nor the description of a loud scream by Sarah Lewis. If there was a scream at all, then it was one of alarm, not surprise. Still less does it seem to resemble a mild reproach.

Hi JS,

At least one of the women who heard the noise seems a bit on the nervous side anyway, placing furniture in front of her door in her room inside the house, so Im not so sure even if that cry had been loud and clearly a call for help, that she wouldnt have just looked out the window, or crawled under the covers. I dont see her as a rescue type.

Which makes me think that when she is awakened by Diddles, likely to the sound or the arrival of the killer downstairs, and hears that faintish "oh-murder", had she thought it sounded real my bet is she wouldnt have gone back to sleep for a while. But she says she drifted off again after hearing no sounds following.

And Sarah Lewis who heard it as if at her door, didnt even go to the door to see whats up.

As I said earlier, with the multiple uses of that same phrase during that period, one at least is fairly benign. And when used in that context, perhaps not so loud, and with inflection well never know about....like "oh-MURDER" I broke my bloody heel, or "OH-murder" you would say anything but your prayers...or "OH-MURDER", I am being killed.

In this case I believe it was , open the door, see whos there, "oh-murder"....Im sleeping, what are you doing here now?

My best regards.

[JSchmidt]

Been washing, cleaning the rooms and other stuff because an aunt visits tomorrow, so less Good Friday Magic for me, more dust and dirty clothing.
Grats on the fitting quote Sam!

I've been pondering the "oh murder" thing a while. It sounds a lot like a phrase from a penny dreadful. (Were there many penny dreadfuls after the ripper series? How much fictionalisation was already rampant during the spree?)
I wonder if it is a case of 20/20 hindsight. There may have been noise and crying, but the witness may have dramatised the whole thing after the fact.
I have no idea, I could speculate on it the whole day without getting much further, even the sentence being "oh mother!", when our victim cries out to her own mother in shock...
What I want to say with that is: It certainly makes for a good story and it shows how much information and abuse people in the East End had to filter through in their lives.
Could also have a been a case where the survival instincts told the listeners to not involve themselves as getting involved in any kind of trouble might have brought you to the rather fast attention of your maker.
Maybe the ignorance seemed not nice but prudent.

[Doctor X]

You have to wait until everyone crawls out from under their rocks Sunday. . . .

Yours truly,

--J.D.

[Sam Flynn]

So whats the deal...I finally try to answer the actual thread question and no-one wants to tear it down?

Must be a religious holiday.

"Das ist Karfreitagszauber, Herr!"

- Wagner, Parsifal, Act III.

So whats the deal...I finally try to answer the actual thread question and no-one wants to tear it down?

Must be a religious holiday.

Cheers all, best regards.

Trying to take on each individual aspect in isolation can be tricky Sam....but point made.

Why?....because in this instance "oh-murder" was uttered without the volume and urgency that might indicate it was an actual life threatening moment...certainly the "ear" witnesses didn't take it that seriously. And once it was uttered, the source need not have said anything more, nor the "inspiration" for the faintish cry....because the way it was recorded as being said could easily have been an exchange of disappointment or unhappiness by the rooms occupant when she sees who was knocking on her window or door, and she utters it while the door is open and he is standing there. What more needs to be said, by either? It also would reveal a bit of tension perhaps with the arriving man, or the disturbance itself.

As for the new thread Robert, I'm at the folks for Good Friday, so maybe another time.

cd.....I would think that 4 out of 4 women that were Jacks first 4 victims were middle-aged, outdoors in vacant areas in the dark, without money or a bed that night, and are most probably soliciting to get those very things, and who are subdued without obvious resistance, are more powerful similarities than whether they wore scarves or bonnets.

But since you raised the bonnets, Mary rarely wore one.

Ok...thats enough sidetracking, Sam will hurt me.

Best regards all.