The Cry of Oh Murder! - Why No Response?

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I am still inclined to go with what I consider to be the most obvious interpretation of the 'Oh Murder' cry, that being the awaken from a 'Nightmare'.
The very fact that Elizabeth Prater gave a vocal rendition to the sound at the inquest, also the very fact that over two years later a seperate resident of Millers court Lottie confirms that Mjk had a very unpleasant dream which frightened her. that she was being 'murdered' which I suggest would account for the actual words heard as it would have been the topic of that dream.
The wording 'Oh Murder' most of us would agree would not be apt to a person actually being attacked by a knive welding maniac, but to someone actually realizing straight away that it was not reality, only a dream it would proberly be suffice.
If one discounts that the scream heard was not that of Mjk actually meeting her end, then the actual killing may have been much later then originally perceived.
Regards Richard.

[c.d.]

CD, over here a teaboy is the boy/man who makes the tea in an office, factory etc. The lowest rank you can get, really, which was one reason why I chose it. In the previous version of Casebook, I was the first one to reach the top police rank, so I thought I'd start at the bottom and stay there.

Michael, I think she quite possibly called "murder" while the sheet was over her face.

Robert

Oh. Ok. I was afraid it was a euphenism for uh...well you know....oh never mind.

c.d.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Guys,
Nothing to do with the Ripper, but the term 'Tea Boy' once got me the sack aged 15.
I worked on the bacon counter for Tescos which was then only corner shops, and the manager was a swine[ a apt name] i guess i was not flavour of the month , and he made my life a misery.
One day he said to me 'You son are useless. go and make me a cup of tea if you can manage that task' so I obeyed his command but whilst walking upstairs to the staff room and tea making facilities. i noticed a broken packet of salt on a ledge, which i decided would make a good addition to his cuppa, the memory of that unpleasant gentleman taking a gulp of tea, and his strange expression stays with me to this day.
Instant dismissal ... But worth it... OH YES.
Regards Richard.

[paul emmett]

the very fact that over two years later a seperate resident of Millers court Lottie confirms that Mjk had a very unpleasant dream which frightened her. that she was being 'murdered' which I suggest would account for the actual words heard as it would have been the topic of that dream.

Hi, Richard.

Why should we believe Lottie? And who is she cofirming?

[perrymason]

Hi again, Thats an interesting suggestion Robert, but with Prater now awake, and actually in the same dwelling as Mary, with claims that she heard movement in Marys room....I think either some cutting or struggling would be following a sheet over the face. There was no further sounds, and Mary has defensive wounds. What I think is more probable is that it was an exclamation of annoyance and fatigue while Mary was standing at her door answering the knock that woke her and Diddles up. Followed by a sleepy shuffle back to bed, letting the visitor close the door. She rolls on her right side, allowing space for the gent to slip in, whispers something and falls asleep quickly. He has watched this from the chair. She gets killed just after 4 I figure, which works out fine with the rigor state in progress later. My best regards

[richardnunweek]

Hello Paul,
Lottie was interviewed by Kit watkins some two-three years after Kellys death, the woman was actually then living in room 13, although in 1888 was resident further down the court.
Remember this account was a considerable time after Praters rendition at the inquest.
Prater.... Like awaken from a nightmare 1888
Lottie.... she told me[Kelly] that she had a nightmare that she was being murdered.1890/91
So Paul why should we not accept Lotties account?
Regards Richard.

[Robert]

Hi Michael

When did Prater say that she heard movement?

Robert

[Suzi]

Hi again, Thats an interesting suggestion Robert, but with Prater now awake, and actually in the same dwelling as Mary, with claims that she heard movement in Marys room....I think either some cutting or struggling would be following a sheet over the face. There was no further sounds, and Mary has defensive wounds. What I think is more probable is that it was an exclamation of annoyance and fatigue while Mary was standing at her door answering the knock that woke her and Diddles up. Followed by a sleepy shuffle back to bed, letting the visitor close the door. She rolls on her right side, allowing space for the gent to slip in, whispers something and falls asleep quickly. He has watched this from the chair. She gets killed just after 4 I figure, which works out fine with the rigor state in progress later. My best regards

Hi Michael-

As I recall it was Diddles that woke Mrs P !! ....Mrs P was living ABOVE Mary's room- and more than likely fast asleep (ish) till the impudent kitten crawled over her to wake her..........Probably in a cattish way disturbed by the goings on underneath the floorboards!

I don't know why... but I imagine that Mary was asleep when she was 'approached ' by someone who let themselves in (don't ask how!...many threads!) and immediatly went for it... sheet over the head-a brief scuffle -a squeak maybe -and some defensive wounds- but that was it! -Then that was it!!!

A quick bit of carvery for maybe 30 minutes tops and out of the door...pocketing the previously obtained key!!! (Another thread of course!)

Well something like that.....but I can't get over the fact that Mary 'sans kit' was asleep with her back to the door when her final 'visitor' entered!

Suz x

[Suzi]

Hi Michael

When did Prater say that she heard movement?

Robert

HI Robert-

The A-Z says that: 'Having gone to bed, she was awakened by her kitten Diddles running over her neck. Heard and ignored a cry of 'Murder' from somewhere.Observed that the lodging house light was out,so assumed it was later than 4.am'

Unless JTR was in the habit of pocketing lightbulbs/gas mantles...this may have some credence!

Suz x

(And also -the Cry of 'Murder' from "somewhere"....[could have been anywhere when you're woken suddenly by a furry paw!].... is mildly interesting too....of course she later said that it was a common cry(!) so rolled over -with or without Dids and went back to sleep!

[paul emmett]

Hello, all.

I just looked at the Prater's inquest statements. She says,"I could have heard her if she moved," but that is all she says about movement. And she says nothing about a nightmare.

[perrymason]

Hi again, It would seem Suzi we aren't far apart on the scene, maybe just on how he arrived in the room. I know that Diddles woke Mrs Prater that night, but as applies to Roberts question, I think at least a few accounts in the press have Elizabeth stating she could hear things moving around in Marys room easily. In The Telegraph she says at Inquest, "The partition was so thin I could have heard Kelly walk about in the room"...and that "partition" wall backed onto the staircase Prater takes upstairs. And as to singing, Mrs Prater says..."None whatever. I should have heard the singing distinctly", which certainly implies that should Mary move, or speak, she might hear that too. As far as cries of "murder", Elizabeth says.."It is nothing unusual in the street. I did not take particular notice. " My best all. Im not saying Mrs P heard something from Marys room that night, only that she could hear things from Marys room.

[Robert]

Hi Suzi

Yes, I think it's quite possible that when he came in, the door knocked the table, awakening Mary and spooking Diddles. Then yes, sheet over face, stab, stab, stab, then right artery cut. Prater didn't hear any of this, of course. If only Diddles could have appeared at the inquest!

Robert

[Suzi]

Hi Michael-
The 'singing' was a lot earlier and I imagine that after Mary'd finished her song/s and Mr Can of Beer was dismissed ... Mary crashed out....

...Now how long she had that slumber is a question of some debate....

.....IF you're a Maxwellite like me it was some time till she woke feeling slightly 'under the weather' and toddled up the road to the Britannia for a 'stiffener' but ....IF you're not-- her 4.00 am ish visitor let himself in and the rest is history.............well allegedly!!

Bed time (Table against the door!) me now!

Suz x

[Suzi]

Hi Suzi

Yes, I think it's quite possible that when he came in, the door knocked the table, awakening Mary and spooking Diddles. Then yes, sheet over face, stab, stab, stab, then right artery cut. Prater didn't hear any of this, of course. If only Diddles could have appeared at the inquest!

Robert

My Dear!
I couldn't have put it better!!!! Can you imagine the Dids/Prater inquest scenario!!!!!!! Feel a drawing coming on.............

Praps it was a cry of 'MEOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWDER!'
Suz xx

[Robert]

Hi Michael

She would have heard movement as she was going upstairs, and also any singing or any rows (e.g. if Barnett came over in the middle of that night for a showdown with MJK). But she was asleep and may have been merely semi-conscious for a minute or two after Diddles woke her. Plus, there didn't have to be that much noise. I imagine that someone who is stabbed several times in the face is too stunned to cry out much. He may then have throttled her a bit before slashing the artery.

It was IMO a botched job and I think he simply wandered in off the street and wasn't expecting to find her there.

Robert