Soliciting or night attack.

[jason_c]

Barnett had been gone from No13 barely nine days, so define 'regular'.

Whenever Barnett was working or getting drunk in a pub she had plenty time to get regulars, wether it be in her room or outdoors.

A fair point about Barnett only being away for nine days but my arguement still stands. Prostitutes and clients expect some privacy. Thats why back alleys and dark corners were used as places for sex. Privacy at 4am was almost guaranteed in Kelly's room.

Im also fairly sure Kelly had return customers.

[DVV]

You're right, Jason.

Barnett was a "cocu magnifique".

Amitiés,
David

[Hunter]

Probability

Hello All,

Some good points have been made by each side in regards as to whether Mary Kelly invited her killer in or was killed by an intruder. In testing theories, I only ask that what is obvious be considered.

Mary was a prostitute.

She was evidently seen with costomers that night.

She knew that McCarthy was going to come for the rent the next day.

She was known to take clients home with her.

She was found in a state of undress.

There was no struggle heard- unless 'oh, murder!' qualifies as such.

If it is believed that she was murdered by the same hand as the others, it is likely that they were killed while soliciting- not by stalking- and the killer had somehow gained their trust ( Of course, being intoxicated and desperate can help).

Any of the above viewed separately wouldn't amount to much, but as a whole, offer a probability.
Could Mary have been killed by an intruder? - Yes... In dealing with speculation, however, which is the most probable?

Got to go to bed. Have to build a fireplace for a costomer tommorow

Best Wishes,
Hunter

[Ben]

Hi Hunter,

Just a few counter-observations.

Mary was a prostitute.

That's true, but so was Mary Cox who, despite having a place of her own in Miller's Court, clearly preferred to conduct her business on the streets.

She was evidently seen with costomers that night.

It depends how strong the evidence is. The blotchy man could have been a client, certainly, but he could just as easily have been a drinking companion or close friend. The fact that she was singing for the next half an hour or so rather than getting straight down to contractual business may support the latter contention. The other possible customer is the Astrakhan man described by Hutchinson, but given the account's numerous implausible and suspicious elements as well as the indications that it was subsequently discredited by police, I doubt very much that the "customer" even existed.

She knew that McCarthy was going to come for the rent the next day.

Mary Cox had similar anxieties, but she appears to have reasoned, quite sensibly, that she'd get through a greater number clients more quickly (and thus earn more money) on the streets. Kelly's drunken serenading of the blotchy man is not particularly consistent with a feeling of urgency to secure the relevant amount of money in time for rent-collecting either.

She was known to take clients home with her.

This is far from proven.

She was found in a state of undress.

Equally compatible with preparation for bed.

There was no struggle heard- unless 'oh, murder!' qualifies as such.

Which would seem compatible with a surprise attack, which in turn would tally with an intruder scenario.

"If it is believed that she was murdered by the same hand as the others, it is likely that they were killed while soliciting- not by stalking"

Soliciting doesn't preclude stalking. We have no way of knowing the length of time taken by the killer to single out his previous victims. If we're to accept that the killer was capable of changing the type of location for dispatching his victims, we ought really to make the same allowances for his pre-crime approach.

Best regards,
Ben

[claire]

Completely agree with you on all those counts, Ben. It troubles me that Barnett said that he left because of Mary's consorting with bad types, along with the implication that she had turned to prostitution again (due to their having lost their income when he found himself out of work), and yet there are many who don't distinguish between Mary's brand of very lackadaisical prostitution and the committed efforts of women like Mary Ann Cox.

I think (and please correct me if I am wrong) that we only have a couple of very unreliable accounts of Mary soliciting on the street (at least one of which appears to be a case of mistaken identity). And, even if she had been known to, it doesn't appear she was doing it with any diligence on that particular day.

This all said, I think it at least as likely that this was not an intruder in the classic sense of the word, but someone knocking on her door at an utterly antisocial hour. We just don't know that she left the door unlocked when she was asleep in her bed; I think it at least as likely that she did not. But we do know that she received male visitors, whether customers, friends or former lovers, and I suspect she wouldn't be any more than blinking irritated that one would come a-knocking just as she was finally managing to fall asleep after an entire day on the sauce.

[DVV]

Equally compatible with preparation for bed.
Ben

Hi Ben,

I'm not sure. A bit too cold, imo.

Amitiés,
David

[The Good Michael]

and yet there are many who don't distinguish between Mary's brand of very lackadaisical prostitution and the committed efforts of women like Mary Ann Cox.

Stride wasn't full-time and neither did any of them seem committed prostitutes. At least Kelly had an anecdotal history of having prostitution as a profession, which is more than can be said for the others.

Cheers,

Mike

[claire]

True enough, Mike. But my point was really that, unlike the others whose street soliciting (albeit sporadic, perhaps) has been noted, we don't have the same information about Mary. Then again, if her previous 'work' had been in the comforts of a gay-house, whether in London, Cardiff or France, then she may well have been reluctant to take to the streets (a step down too far, perhaps). And, yes, she had to find custom somewhere.

David...cold outside, yes, but there was a fire in the room. It's pretty chilly here right now but I don't generally go to bed in all my clothes...and if it was really that cold in the room, she was perfectly able to conduct business without stripping right down.

[The Good Michael]

Claire,

I think we have some fairly obvious surmise about Kelly, as distasteful as surmise with regards to a woman's choice of trade may be. I believe there is little doubt that this is what she did for a living and what afforded her a room, albeit a small, sketchy one.

Cheers,

Mike

[DVV]

Hi Claire,

the fire can't last too long. But the pane was broken for good.

Amitiés,
David

[Sox]

Time and, I suppose, imagination has led me to think of Mary Kelly as a different 'class' of prostitute. I see Nichols,Chapman,Stride and possibly Eddowes as being women who sold their bodies for the price of a bed, or to fill their bellies, and perhaps even for gin. I really think Kelly was a full time prostitute, and I see her hooking up with men for protection, not love.

Basically I think Barnett was lying his rear end off, and that he was her 'Bully'. A lot of his statement/testimony sounds hollow and contrite. One minute she's a sober woman, next minute he's seen her drunk 'several times', he even admits they were booted out of their former lodgings for drunkeness/rent arrears. They 'decide' to live together after meeting just once for a drink, & he calls her Marie Jeanette when nobody else does.

I also find her rent arrears rather baffling. I just do not see McCarthy as the charitable type, and it's pretty obvious she had no intention of paying that rent, she was earning, even spending money in his shop! I think that Kelly was on a downward spiral and I ask myself, 'if she had not died that night, how long would it have been before she was trapped in the same kind of life that the other four had'? Not long.

It is more than likely, that by 1888 Kelly was starting to struggle in her trade. She was above average age for a prostitute (avg age was 22) & out of the C5 she was the odd one out, but not because she was so young. The story of 'Black Mary' would have been a girl past her prime driving off the younger competition I think.

I find it quite incredible that it requires a leap of faith to see Kelly picking up the man who killed her, on the streets, she was a prostitute after all, and it seems fairly obvious that the Whitechapel Killers victims chose the spots where they died, so why not Kelly too? Perhaps this really has turned into an industry, & there really is no stock in just going with simplicity anymore because that won't sell books.

[Hunter]

Sox, I believe your synopsis on Mary Kelly is correct- albeit a sad one. All of the victims shared a common trait that led them to their doom. The murderer did not have to change his to find them. If "lesser" prostitutes could use flop house beds for "work", Mary certainly could use her room.

I also agree that some aspects of Ripperology have strayed into the abstract- even to the point, now, that to some, there was no Jack The Ripper. Maybe its natural, since real new tangible information is rarely found.

Maybe this quote from the Times written on the day after Mary's death sums it up best.


'When evidence is not to be had, theories abound. Even the most plausible of them do not carry conviction'

Best Wishes,
Hunter

[Ben]

I wouldn't say any "leap of faith" is required to envisage a scenario in which Kelly encounters her killer on the street. I'd only observe that the intruder scenario is by no means less likely. I realise that Kelly "could" have used her room, but she may not have wanted to, besides which we know that her prostitute neighbour, Mary Cox, was clearly not using her room for business on the night of the murder.

Best regards,
Ben

[richardnunweek]

Hi Ben,
According to Mary Cox neice in a interview way back, her aunt had a partner then , infact not long married, and she was waiting at her door in the court for him to arrive back from the pub , apparently he was a rather heavy drinker.
So I would not assume Cox was a practising prostitute.
Oral history obviously.
Strange, but Mrs Cox has never been doubted on her story of blotchy, yet she comes across as a bit of story teller, with her descriptions of kellys morals, and a fine ' posh gentleman' standing at kellys door, and she allegedly informed her neice, she observed all of this whilst standing at her door[ armed with rolling pin so to speak].
So what happened to her initial statement to the police which has her following Mary And Blotchy into the court.?
Question . Did Blotchy exist, or did the 'Posh gent'?
Sorry of thread.
Regards Richard.

[Ben]

Hi Ben,
According to Mary Cox neice in a interview way back, her aunt had a partner then , infact not long married, and she was waiting at her door in the court for him to arrive back from the pub , apparently he was a rather heavy drinker.
So I would not assume Cox was a practising prostitute.
Oral history obviously.
Strange, but Mrs Cox has never been doubted on her story of blotchy, yet she comes across as a bit of story teller, with her descriptions of kellys morals, and a fine ' posh gentleman' standing at kellys door, and she allegedly informed her neice, she observed all of this whilst standing at her door[ armed with rolling pin so to speak].
So what happened to her initial statement to the police which has her following Mary And Blotchy into the court.?
Question . Did Blotchy exist, or did the 'Posh gent'?
Sorry of thread.
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard,

I'm afraid the neice's tale had been widely discredited as fiction, with considerable justification. Since the account in question differs so markedly from Cox's original version of events, it's quite clear that the latter had become heavily distorted and embellished over time with Cox herself having very little to do with it, in all probability.

Cox herself was very open about the fact that she earned her living on the streets, describing herself as an "unfortunate". She was most assuredly a "practicing prostitute".

Best regards,
Ben