Soliciting or night attack.

[KatBradshaw]

Hi Kat,
That being the case, she managed to undress down to a chemise, and if the crime scene, according to my opinion shows a sock on her right leg, then she nearly made it before passing out.
I still prefer the undressing for sex, awaiting Mr Porter to arrive choice.
Richard.

I have to say I agree that she had prepared herself for her client. The only thing that has ever bothered me is the where the blood spray appears to have gone. It would seems she was laying on her back when she was cut, the blood spraying up the wall. This seems an awfully awkward place to attack someone from. Unless she was lying with her head in his lap??

That being said its not uncommon for people to wake up with one boot still on and one off!

[DVV]

She undressed for sex, or was about to sleep, I don't know.

But the most likely scenario to me is that she had a visit and prepared to sleep with the visitor. I also think they lit the fire together.
Then she undressed (almost completely, as it seems, though nothing can be proved), and was attacked when sleeping or about to sleep.

No intruder, in my opinion, and her last client was Blotchy.

Amitiés,
David

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
The kelly mystery is a fascinating aspect to the Whitechapel murders, so many opinions which are so plausible, I do not go along with the 'Sleep with a client' idea , more of a quickie laying down on a bed more like.
As for the fire, one could easily get the opinion that it was lit by MJK to boil water for a expected client, but never got to actually remove the kettle, hense the melted spout.
And boots laid near the grate.
It was raining that night, especially in the early morning[ note Catherine picketts knock to borrow a shawl because of the drizzle] at 730am, Marys clothing would have got damp, if she had ventured out, so a logical place to place wet boots on return would be in that position, ie, near a fire, assuming it was lit, otherwise no point.
Regards Richard.

[Sam Flynn]

Good point, Richard - although it was raining long before Mrs Maxwell's sighting, and Kelly could have got her boots wet via puddles... even if there were no rain actually falling when she was out on the streets.

I've little doubt, though, that you've hit upon a very convincing reason for Mary's having lit the fire herself. She needed those clothes/boots to be dry for the next day's "work".

[Addy]

In Paul Begg's book it states that they thought she was asleep because of cuts on the sheet, that indicated it had been pulled up to her chin when she was attacked. That's where the asleep idea came from. She could have been cold as well (the window was broken and it was a draughty room), so she pulled up the bedding to remain warm. As far as I remember there was a lot of blood soaked up by the bedding and the matress, so the idea was she was cut lying down.

Nice thought on the fire!

Greetings,

Addy

[richardnunweek]

Hello Sam.
True it had been raining on and off throughout the night, and depending on the strength , puddles could have formed, however reports indicate the ashes was still relatively warm , when police entered the room, indicating the fire could have been lit at a much later time.
I have never had the opinion that the killer would have lit a fire for light, at any stage during that murder, kelly lit that fire for warmth in my opinion, for reasons stated.
Regards Richard.

[Ben]

Yes, or she came home sozzled and past out in her clothes.

This explanation would seem to be the most consistent with the evidence, Kat, particularly that of Mary Ann Cox.

Richard, I'm really not sure why you think that the suggested presence of a single sock is more indicative of preparation for sex with an oddly impatient client that it is of intoxication and absent-mindedness, nor do I really understand the significance of the "bedroll". Surely the killer did the "rolling" himself in order to facillitate the ensuing mutilations? The bed was also unlikely have provided room for two supine adult bodies, at least not without significant discomfort.

Best regards,
Ben

[KatBradshaw]

This explanation would seem to be the most consistent with the evidence, Kat, particularly that of Mary Ann Cox.

Richard, I'm really not sure why you think that the suggested presence of a single sock is more indicative of preparation for sex with an oddly impatient client that it is of intoxication and absent-mindedness, nor do I really understand the significance of the "bedroll". Surely the killer did the "rolling" himself in order to facillitate the ensuing mutilations? The bed was also unlikely have provided room for two supine adult bodies, at least not without significant discomfort.

Best regards,
Ben

Yes but only one needs to be supine.

[Sam Flynn]

nor do I really understand the significance of the "bedroll". Surely the killer did the "rolling" himself in order to facillitate the ensuing mutilations?

Don't think so, Ben - he'd surely have just flung it to one side and got on with it, whereas that blanket was quite tightly rolled-up. I really can't see Jack (or whoever it was) taking that amount of time, not only to do the rolling in the first place, but also to put the blanket where it ended up, and furthermore drape one of Mary's stockings neatly across the top of it.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
The bedroll is [ in my opinion] a clue to the T.O.D, it is as Sam mentions tightly rolled, and most unlikely to have been manhandled by a sardistic killer, especially during the night in a darkened room.
I would suggest that no sex took place, and kelly was attacked in daylight around 9am[ pure speculation] whilst prepearing to greet a man she thought was with sex intentions.
The bedrolled rolled back by kelly before leaving the room around 8am, and the fire also lit.
Regards Richard.

[Ben]

Hi Gareth,

I really can't see Jack (or whoever it was) taking that amount of time

That's just the problem. I can't see anyone taking time to folding the blanket into an excessively neat and compacted wrap as though in preparation for CCF camp. I don't personally see any compelling pictorial evidence of excessive folding or wrapping, and would argue instead that the sheet was simply bunched up and shoved aside, most probably by the killer.

All the best,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

That's just the problem. I can't see anyone taking time to folding the blanket into an excessively neat and compacted wrap as though in preparation for CCF camp.

Kelly, earlier that evening, before she went out on her rounds, just to give her mattress an airing? Perhaps she felt like leaving the fleas out for a walk

and would argue instead that the sheet was simply bunched up and shoved aside, most probably by the killer.

Again, Ben, why on earth would he even "bunch" it - still less roll it - and not just chuck it to one side out of the way? Why on earth would he then pick up one of her stockings and drape it neatly over the top of the "bunch", or roll (as the case may be)?

[Ben]

Hi Gareth,

Perhaps she felt like leaving the fleas out for a walk

...Or crushing them within the vice-like grip of The Roll!

I can see myself taking a few seconds to bundle up an unwanted blanket before casting it aside to ensure that it really is "out of the way", but even if the killer wasn't responsible, and Kelly did the bundling herself, she could easily have returned home intoxicated and not thus inclined to bother with either the blanket unbundling process or fully undressing herself, hence the draped sock.

All the best,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

The interesting thing, Ben, is that we know that Kelly did return home intoxicated that night... and she brought a man back with her.

[claire]

Am I getting confused, or were there signs of defensive wounds on her arms/hands? Not that this necessarily rules out her having been asleep and waking a little at the point of any intruder's entry/start of the attach, of course.

If this was a client she was getting properly undressed for, then it would (logically, although that could mean nothing) seem likely that it would be a client she knew reasonably well. I can't see that she would need to bother with a casual client, and nor am I convinced that she would invite a stranger into her room, given the reports of her fears. Also, as has been extensively discussed elsewhere, it doesn't appear that she was that fussed about making money (rent arrears etc) to the extent that she would go to the trouble to find a total stranger and bring him back to the room...but then it's no secret that I don't think it was a total stranger at all.