How long was the killer in the room?

[Observer]

Hello!

If Kelly met her killer on the street, and took him back to her room, then the whole argument of the locked door evaporates. Kelly lets him in, and he drops the latch on the way out, no problem. The locked door only becomes contentious with the intruder scenario.

all the best

Observer

[Sam Flynn]

We're straying WAY off the topic of "how long he was in the room" here, folks!

[Ben]

Hi Observer,

“I find it hard to believe kelly did not slip the latch. And how did her killer know the door was unlocked? Are we assuming that JTR went around trying doors in the early hours of the morning? Or are we assuming that Kelly knew her killer, and he knew full well that Kelly's door would be unlocked?”

Neither assumption is necessary if we consider the strong possibility that the killer adopted the practice cultivated by other serial killers of monitoring the crime scene from a vantage point prior to attacking. Both Bundy and Rader used this strategy to successful and devastating effect, and the same could easily have occurred in the Kelly case, especially when we consider the unidentified loitering man with an apparent interest in Miller’s Court as described by Sarah Lewis at the inquest and in her police report. That doesn’t mean that Kelly didn’t know her killer. She may well have done, but it needn’t have been anything significantly above and beyond a casual acquaintance.

“The locked door only becomes contentious with the intruder scenario.”

It really shouldn’t be remotely contentious with the intruder scenario, since it’s so obviously plausible that an intoxicated, tired, absent-minded and preoccupied Kelly could easily have neglected to latch her door before retiring to bed. Irrespective of what Prater did, there’s no evidence of Kelly latching her door, just as there is no non-discredited evidence of Kelly emerging from her room after 1:30am that morning.

But as Gareth aptly observes, we’re way off topic here, so best to draw a discreet veil over the present exchange.

All the best,
Ben

[DVV]

where do you get that from? Mrs Maxwell has the coroner in her favor. he said that rigor mortis advanced while they were examining MJK in the room. if she had been killed at 2 or 3 in the morning, rigor mortis would've been completed before they got the door open. the food in her stomach was only partly digested. again, this should have been completed if she was killed at 2 or 3. food continues to digest after death. so actually, it's the people who say MJK was killed at 2 or 3am that have everything going against them. I can't safely say that she was killed at 10am. but I think it's pretty safe to assume that she died later than 3am.

And with all that knowledge you still believe in Mrs Maxwell ?

Amitiés,
David

ps: how do you know "rigor mortis advanced..." etc ? From Bond, right ? And what did he say about the TOD ?

[Pontius2000]

And with all that knowledge you still believe in Mrs Maxwell ?

Amitiés,
David

ps: how do you know "rigor mortis advanced..." etc ? From Bond, right ? And what did he say about the TOD ?

one way or another, Bond was mistaken. he was either mistaken about rigor advancing during the examination or the time of death. if he was mistaken about the time of death, there's no reason to assume that Maxwell did not see MJK alive that morning. what evidence has been presented otherwise? that at Time A, MJK was singing and at Time B she was not singing? come on.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Pontius!

What it comes to the question about rigor mortis, I hope some of the members with medical expertise will join this conversation!

I think you should think about the following thing; Mary Kelly was 5'7" (=170,28 in centimeters). In another words: as tall as the men of the time. The Mary Kelly described by mrs. Maxwell was a lot shorter: 5'4" (=162,66 in centimeters).

So; she could very well have seen Mary Kelly. But not the Mary Kelly in question!

All the best
Jukka

[harry]

Cox does not say how far she was behind Kelly and companion,but being as Kelly and companion had not entered when Cox passed,there could have been time enough for Kelly to reach through the window and slip the catch and be about to enter as Cox caught up.Needed only seconds,and the darkness of the surroundings would have masked what Kelly had done.So the possibility of the companion knowing the trick,leaving,then coming back later,is there,and as has been mentioned,only someone conversant with the window entry method,and a need to use it,might have waited till the early hours.
Limits the potential suspects to just a few,which is why the method is not popular with many,considering the majority of suspects are strangers.
As to the darkness of the court,Prater states when she went to her room the Court was in complete darkness,and perhaps that's how it was all that night.

[DVV]

one way or another, Bond was mistaken. he was either mistaken about rigor advancing during the examination or the time of death. if he was mistaken about the time of death, there's no reason to assume that Maxwell did not see MJK alive that morning. what evidence has been presented otherwise?

Bond was mistaken, but not that much. So physical evidence rules Mrs Maxwell out.
Kelly was of course already dead when mrs Picket knocked her door at 7:30.

Amitiés,
David

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
As previously stated , I believe the killer was in the room for around 40 minutes, and I believe the killer was the market porter that Maxwell saw talking to kelly around 845am.
Therefore obviously I am pro Maxwell, and because of that Bond made a mistake, no one could determine T.O.D from that tangled mess it would be impossible even today, he relied on intuition , and the time the cry was heard, to make an educated guess.
Does anyone here believe its credible that Maxwell would have deliberately lied under oath, she was totally certain that she saw Kelly, her clothing description matched items found in room 13, and her wherabouts that morning were checked and verified.
She was interviewed on the same day, she would have had to have been extremely confused to have made a mistake on the date, and remember at any time at the inquest, if she realised she was mistaken , she could have said so, without fear of reprisal.
The police themselves must have had reservations about the medical verdict, to even ask Maxwell to attend, for what she was going to say would have gone against their own, which they woulf never had done without good reason.
Because of this ,I suggest two scenerios.
1] Kelly was killed by the porter around 9am..
2] The victim was not Mjk, and kelly was involved, and Maxwell saw her with the killer at 845am, after the butchery had finished.
Naturally the first is the obvious.
However the vast majority of Casebook still believe a 1888 doctors report...
Regards Richard.

[DVV]

1] Kelly was killed by the porter around 9am..
2] The victim was not Mjk, and kelly was involved, and Maxwell saw her with the killer at 845am, after the butchery had finished.
Naturally the first is the obvious.
However the vast majority of Casebook still believe a 1888 doctors report...
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard,

the "first is obvious" ?
...!
Once again, Bond, Phillips, "oh murder!" etc are evidences against Mrs Maxwell.
That's probably why the vast majority is still fool enough to put the murder at about 4:00...

Amitiés,
David

[richardnunweek]

Hi David,
The cry of 'Oh Murder' I agree was a clue to the TOD, but there are two alternative explanations.
1] A cry not from Millers court, but a domestic nearby.
2] Mjk awakening from a nightmare.
Both of these have points for.
witness.. People are always screaming bloody murder, I only heard it once, and took no notice.
Mrs Prater at inquest.
'Like awakening from a nightmare'
Lottie to Kit Watkins ..'She told me [ kelly] that she had a nightmare that someone was murdering her'.
Both of these alternatives are plausible, especially the latter, when one remembers the cry heard 'Oh Murder'.... what was the nightmare about?
Regards Richard.

[DVV]

Richard, at 7:30, Mary wasn't in her room...
Where was she - if she wasn't deat yet ?
She must have been outside, or in a pub.
Then how comes that only Mrs Maxwell had seen her ?
(Don't bring Maurice Lewis back, please, Richard!)

All in all, I still don't understand why you believe Mrs Maxwell rather than the other evidences.

Amitiés,
David

[DVV]

Hello Pontius!

What it comes to the question about rigor mortis, I hope some of the members with medical expertise will join this conversation!

I think you should think about the following thing; Mary Kelly was 5'7" (=170,28 in centimeters). In another words: as tall as the men of the time. The Mary Kelly described by mrs. Maxwell was a lot shorter: 5'4" (=162,66 in centimeters).

So; she could very well have seen Mary Kelly. But not the Mary Kelly in question!

All the best
Jukka

Indeed Jukka,

Mary, according to Mrs Maxwell, has vomitted.
At about 8:30 - 8:45.
Then she ate fish and potatoes...then went back home...then was murdered...
What a joke...

Let me tell you: if I vomit after drinking...well, I'll never have fish immediatly after... or I'll vomit again!

Amitiés,
David

[j.r-ahde]

Hello David!

True, indeed; if one vomits after drinking, then one doesn't eat or drink anything for some time!

Strange, indeed, that some people here are trying hard to make the death of MJK more mysterious than it really was!

All the best
Jukka

[DVV]

Strange, Jukka, very strange!

The fact that she had food in her intestines makes the morning sighting, and consequently a "morning murder" impossible.

Amitiés,
David