mjks real name

[Wickerman]

Not sure if anyone has stumbled across this 1881 Census listing for a Mary Kelly, Irish born aged 18, living at 4 Boundary Place, Shoreditch.
Interestingly, she is living without parents or any siblings, and given as the neice of one Catherine Mitchell, also Irish born, aged 50.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

Kelly

Hello Jon. I think I stumbled across that one before.

I suppose the trick is to find one that corroborates Barnett's story. Else, I doubt the name will be Kelly.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Complicated

Hello Jon. I think I stumbled across that one before.

I suppose the trick is to find one that corroborates Barnett's story. Else, I doubt the name will be Kelly.

Cheers.
LC

Brainstorming Exercise follows:

If we're working on the basis that MJK lied about her history, why did she invent such a complicated story? The greater the detail, the harder it would be to remember. She said she was born in Limerick, but moved to Carmarthen as a very small child. Was she claiming to be Irish but in need of an explanation for a Welsh accent? She could, of course, be a Kelly, but not Irish, just as I am a Macdonald but not Scottish (though of Scottish descent). Is the brother in the Scots Guards an invention or just her own name?

If you lie, as Lynn has pointed out elsewhere, you try to make the lie easy to remember, by including an element of truth. I think, too, she would want to keep a true ingredient in her name. Mary Kelly was an alias allegedly in common use by prostitutes. Perhaps the "Jane" was genuine? If you are trying to create a credible, but bogus, past, do you claim to have been born in Ireland when you weren't? Do you explain a Welsh accent by claiming you lived in Wales, even though you were born just over the border in England?

I suspect "Jane" is a true ingredient and her age, which doesn't really identify her, and that she did know somebody in the 2nd Battalion, Scots Guards.

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

Irish

Hello Colin. I believe the Irish birth is correct. Welsh accent? Could be. But as I said on the other thread, I think this stuff sounds like a cover story.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. I think I stumbled across that one before.

I suppose the trick is to find one that corroborates Barnett's story. Else, I doubt the name will be Kelly.

Cheers.
LC

Yet, Barnett's story is all lies, is it not?

So let me see, if the measure by which we judge the candidacy of any Mary Kelly is defective, then how can we honestly say we have not found her?

There's an element of Alice in Wonderland about the logic being applied here don't you think?


We use Barnett's evidence to locate Mary, and when we cannot we declare her story all lies. So when we come up with a close fit, she is dismissed because she doesn't meet the requirements of Barnett's story..... I smell the Mask of Janus at work.


Can someone pass me a drink....
Regards, Jon S.

[Livia]

On Debs' Scots Guards thread I posted a snippet about
a Douglas/Johnstone/Kelly family I'd been researching.
On the basis of Debs' idea of a Johnto/Johnstone
connection, I searched Ancestry and LDS site and
found an intriguing match in the above family.

John Douglas Preston Douglas born in Liverpool
to Robert and Mary married Isabella Johnstone
sometime in the 1850s. They lived in Frizington
Cumberland close to Isabella's home in Distington.
John was an iron miner.

Mary Johnstone Douglas, their daughter, was born in
c. 1859 in Frizington and appears as two years old
on the 1861 census with her parents and a brother
Robert six months old.

By 1871, two more sons have been born Wilson age 5
and John age 1. This is the second son named John born
to John and Isabella Douglas, the previous son John
died a four year old in 1868. Mary is absent from the
census, and I have not been able to locate her anywhere
else in 1871.

In 1881, Mary has returned to the family fold as Mary
Kelley, a widow with an infant less than six months old
named Sarah Johnstone Kelly. Sarah Johnstone Kelly
has no father listed on her baptsimal record. Another
son David and a daughter Jane has been born to John
and Isabella.

I could find no marriage record for MJD and a Kelly,
but there was a very large family of Kellys with
several sons who lived fairly close to the Douglas family
in Frizington (about a dozen census pages away).

On 16 January 1883, Mary Kelly, widow, father John Douglas or
Preston Douglas marries William Quayle, age 30 of Frizington, also
an iron miner. A daughter Annie is born in 1883, another
daughter Mary Isabella is born in 1885, and a son William
Wilson Quayle born in 1888. The last birth pretty much
disqualified Mary Johnston Douglas Kelly Quayle as being
"the" MJK. Sarah Johnstone Kelly is listed under the name
Quayle as is William Wilson and they are both listed as
grandchildren on the 1891 census. Mary's husband William
Quayle died in 1888 and Mary and her daughter Mary
Isabella are absent from the Douglas family in 1891. I think
I located them as visitors on the 1891 census with the
Thirlwell family in Dearham, Cumberland under the name Quail.

On the 1901 census, Mary is again absent from the Douglas
family but her three children are there, but they're listed
as nieces and a nephew of John and Isabella.

So while Mary Johnstone Douglas initially showed some
promise, subsequent research ruled her out. Since I mentioned
a bit about this family on Debs' Scots Guard thread, I thought
it only fair to follow through and tell the rest of the story.

Liv

[Debra A]

Thanks for taking the time and trouble to look at this family, Liv. Much appreciated.

[Livia]

You're welcome, Debs.

One Mary Kelly at a time, eh?

[curious]

You're welcome, Debs.

One Mary Kelly at a time, eh?

Oh, if only we could get a bit of her DNA.

[miss marple]

Interestingly, the family at 19 Homfrey st were living next door no 21, to a family of Matthew Crowley 60, labourer, born Ireland, widower.
Living with him was his daughter Johanna Davies, 29, mother of Mary Ann,6 Alexander 4 Matthew 2, also his sons John 27 gen labourer, and Matthew 19 labourer. all born Cardiff.
Mr Davies is not present on census night, I don't think she is a widow, without looking at original record.
I think she married John Davies in March 1880 at Cardiff, cant find another Cardiff entry between 1872/80.So were her children born before the marriage?
So is Mr Davies working, or absconded or dead?

Mary could have got the DAVIES story off someone she knew, just speculating,

Miss Marple

[Wickerman]

Mary could have got the DAVIES story off someone she knew, just speculating,

It is a little odd to claim to have been married at 16 yet hubby dies almost straight away. Lets face it, how many 16 year olds given the right to have legitimate sex (being married) are not going to get pregnant?
Or did she?

Dr. Bond could have helped us out here if he had only described the condition of her uterus. :-(

So long as no marriage certificate turns up, sadly the story is potentially bogus.

Regards, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

Dr. Bond could have helped us out here if he had only described the condition of her uterus. :-(

Err...detatched...

Seriously...

OK she was allegedly married a couple of years...but what would the condition of her uterus prove anyway? If she'd been prostituting herself since her teens, the odds are somewhat against her not conceiving at SOME stage during that period, aren't they?

So either she couldn't conceive, or she'd had at least one pregnancy (terminated or otherwise)...so with respect, where would that have got us with regard to proving she was ever married or not...I'm sorry but I don't follow the logic...


Dave

[lynn cates]

bogus story

Hello Jon.

"So long as no marriage certificate turns up, sadly the story is potentially bogus."

A potentially bogus story with MJK at the centre? Hmm, continue please.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon.

"So long as no marriage certificate turns up, sadly the story is potentially bogus."

A potentially bogus story with MJK at the centre? Hmm, continue please.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.
Not knowing the context of why she made this claim is part of the problem. It could be consistent with a plea for sympathy among women of her own kind.

On the other hand, if there had been a genuine marriage we might have expected her to talk more about her husbands family, but apparently Barnett could not recall her talking about them.

Dave.
I said Bond "could have helped us out here", I didn't say anything about proof.

You'll probably find very little risk of pregnancy among these kinds of prostitutes, true intercourse would be a rare occurance.
We even had one extreme case posted on Casebook back in the early days, where a Madam of a brothel, who had spent much of her youth in prostitution actually died a virgin.
Its all about method & technique.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

cover

Hello Jon. Yes, but it is also consistent with some sort of cover story. Problem is, cover for what?

Cheers.
LC