mjks real name

[Suzi]

Hi Jason-

I'm sure Joe said just what Mary had told him- what else could he have said?- He had nothing else in his head re the woman he'd lived with for 18 mnths (Odd in itself but if there was such a large secret I reckon 'Mary' (!) would have kept that for EVER and never mentioned a word- she wanted to keep that Joe- and probably have the odd visit from the Flemming boy!!!)...

In that case at the inquest he told what he thought was his 'truth'-I guess he had no reason to think otherwise- if he believed her- well that's another story- they rowed over a few weeks/months- a few broken windows etc etc but hey....

All he could speak of at the short inquest was what he was told in the story Mary (!) told him

Odd tho....

[jason_c]

Thanks for your support Chris and some good points there Ian.
Have got this dark idea lurking in the back of my mind- which I reckon to be the truth though- All we have is what Joe spluttered out at the inquest- and all we have I must stress is what HE said that Mary (!) told HIM- To be honest at the very best it's 'Hearsay' Can you imagine how this would sit in a court today!

If there's anyone in history who had the ability to disappear- 'M.J.K' did it- big time!!!

I do believe that Kelly likely told Barnett what he subsequently told the inquest. He was first on the stand at the inquest, and he had no idea if Kelly's acquaintances would tell a different story from him altogether.

Wether Kelly told Barnett the truth is another matter entirely.

[Suzi]

what a pity that the Jeannette Davies i found in Camarthanshire Wales (daughter of John) was still alive in 1891 - not a pity for her of course!

I know
- all this MJK- Mary-Marie-Jeannette Davis- Davies -Mine accidents etc etc is just sadly without credence-- possibly all the Ireland/Carmarthen/Cardiff stuff may be equally dubious.

But when we get to the Breezers Hill/Mrs Buki etc etc things start to fall into 'some' sort of place but still it doesn't feel right to me-

Now when the Mc Carthys- a STRONG Irish family- even today- (all of them- and there were a LOT!) get involved ( and they seem to get 'involved' a LOT! ) there appears to be some sort of cohesion to the later parts of the story- she seems to have no problem getting involved with them in one way or another- (accomodation with no questions asked/lodgings etc etc ) and then we get what she allegedly told Joe- that he spouted at the cut short inquest (if you believe any of that!).
At the end of the day it is only Barnett's account!

'Read to me Joe'- really???.... something from the creature who was allegedly 'well educated and could speak Welsh and paint' etc etc Hmmmmm

Off on one now! (sorry!)

Come in Chris!!

Lizzie Fisher ....I may be 'fishing' at this point- but I still can't dismiss her or Lizzie Albrook et al (excuse the puns please! :/)

Even today if I moved to another town and called myself Mary Kelly moved into the community and re-made myself etc etc who would know any difference? (I'd choose another name though!)

I she was Mary Jane Kelly -She may as well be Sweet Fanny Adams -who's buried 20 miles up the road from me here in Alton!!

[Suzi]

Thanks for your support Chris and some good points there Ian.
Have got this dark idea lurking in the back of my mind- which I reckon to be the truth though- All we have is what Joe spluttered out at the inquest- and all we have I must stress is what HE said that Mary (!) told HIM- To be honest at the very best it's 'Hearsay' Can you imagine how this would sit in a court today!

If there's anyone in history who had the ability to disappear- 'M.J.K' did it- big time!!!

[evilina]

what a pity that the Jeannette Davies i found in Camarthanshire Wales (daughter of John) was still alive in 1891 - not a pity for her of course!

[evilina]

Of course, it could be that her real name was Marie Jeanette not Mary Jane and her husband's name was Davie (ie David) anything you like??

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Ian!

A great piece of info indeed, thank you!

All the best
Jukka

[DVV]

Hi Ian,

that's an excellent suggestion.
At least, you just show that the problem we have re the censuses doesn't necessarily mean MJK was an assumed name.

Amitiés,
David

[ianincleveland]

There could be another reason whyn they dont appear in census records.MJKs parents if Marys age in 1888 is right(even roughly) would have been alive during the Famine.They could have easily seen half their families killed.

Many of the survivors retained a hate of the British Crown and certain politicans,though in general they managed to seperate ordinary people from the rulers.

In Ireland to not fill in a census form was a form of quiet protest at British rule.My Grandmothers Father was Irish and he never filled one in either,though i believe my great gran filled in her details and rest of the family bit not her husband.

So maybe the Kellys as survivors of the Famine years avoided the Crowns census,and maybe this was something a young MJK in 1881 carried on.

Its just my theory and have no definite proof of it but its a suggestion

[Chris Scott]

I agree with you completely and said so in the book
I believe that the most likely explanantion is that, for whatever reason, Kelly used an assumed name, surely not that uncommon a practice for one in her circumstances.
Of course mention of the Barnett account raises more unanswered (and probably unanswerable) questions:
- Did the whole account come from Kelly or did Barnett embellish it?
- How much of the account did Barnett believe?
etc.

I think it highly unlikely that we will EVER know the true identity and background of the woman who died in Millers Court... but that doen't stop us looking...

[Suzi]

Great stuff here boys for 'curious' but the problem IMHO is tht she wasn't a Mary or a Kelly or a Davis/Davies in the first place. Therein lies the problem... I hate to say it- I don't think we'll ever get to the bottom of who 'Mary' was (sigh) sad but true..........

All we have is what she allegedly said to Joe Barnett- and that was only from Joe-his comments and inquest remarks...Really there's nothing to go on is there?

We'll never know!

Unless........well we live in some sort of hope

Maybe IF the Mc C stuff bubbled to the surface - but I'm not going there- That's their family and Their decisions

[Chris Scott]

Hi Phil
There are also other odd features about her name that we get from the early reports of the murder:
1) Some of those who knew her said they knew her only as "Mary Jane" and did not know a surname
2) Barnett was insistent that the French looking form of her name - which some have theorised was an affectation dating from her period in France and the West End "gay" house - was the true and original form and indeed it is this form - Marie Jeanette - that appears on her death certificate
3) Where did the other two commonly quoted names for the Millers Court victim - Lizzie Fisher and Mary Jane Lawrence - come from? She was also said to have been known as Mary Jane McCarthy.

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

Mary Kelly, Mary Ann Kelly, Mary Anne Kelly, Mary Jane Kelly, Mary Jeanette Kelly, Mary Janette Kelly, Marie Jeanette Kelly,Mary Janet Kelly, Ann Kelly, Jane Kelly, Black Mary, Mary O'Brien,Fair Emma, Ginger, Mary Davis, Mary Ann Davis, Mary Jane Davis, Mary Davies, Mary Ann Davies, Mary Jane Davies.....

and that lot is just all the ones I have either seen in newspapers, books or remaining possibilities.

Then, like Chris says... Kelley, Keely, Kellie, Kelli, Kaleigh.
Davids, Davey, Daveys.

Not counting all the possible Fleming, Hutchinson, Stone, Morganstone, Morgenstein, Barnett, Barrett, Barnet possibilities.

The list is almost endless.
Why so many possibilities?
It seems to me that just about every name and possibility has been looked at by someone somewhere. I'm sure Chris Scott himself has spent more hours than he cares to admit searching for this woman.

So we come to the ultimate point. What if this woman wasn't really Mary Kelly?

After that little list...it must surely be a possibility.

best wishes

Phil

[Suzi]

Been on the case too long I guess- what do you think?

[curious]

There's a L O T of potential conspiracy theories (sigh) re Mary...check out Mary under victims they're all in there OK ?

I've done that and have some thoughts of my own.

Thought you might have others.

curious