mjks real name

[Chris Scott]

Hi guys
I think the "missing something simple" argument may well prove to have some mileage in it
It could be, for example, that we are looking for a Kelley, not a Kelly...
We also have to bear in mind that the dates of her life as reported would fall in very badly with her appearance in UK records. At the time of the 1871 census she would have been (if 25 at death) about 8 years old, in which case it is quite feasible the family would not have yet moved to Wales. If that is the case, then the only document of UK records we could be pretty certain that she would appear in is the 1881 census, presumably the Welsh census if we accept Barnett's dating which would appear to suggest that she came to London in or about 1884. Logically (not that that has so far led anywhere!) she should be down as Mary Davies as Barnett's account would lead us to believe that she married in or about 1879 and her husband died in 1881 or 1882.
So, if the family had NOT moved to Wales by 1871 then in the available documentation (in terms of census) then we are looking for Mary Kelly on just ONE DAY of her time in the UK as by the time of the 1891 census she was, of course, dead and buried. So if on this day (3 April 1881) Kelly had been for whatever reason out of the country (for example, visiting relatives in Ireland) we would not find her.....
The other alleged document is, of course, problematic and that is her marriage certificate. Barnett's account here certainly does suggest that the name Kelly may be assumed in that he asserted two alleged facts:
1) That Kelly was her maiden name
2) She was legally married
The name of her spouse he initially reported as Davis or Davies, then said he didnt know the surname, then opted for Davies as more likely!
Of course any search for this purported marriage assumes that it occurred in the UK, specificially in Wales. Because the alleged spouse was named Davies and was a miner, it is not unreasonable to assume that he was Welsh! However, again there is no guarantee that the couple married in Wales, or even in the UK. We simply do not know how often Kelly would have gone back to the "old country" if at all and although it may seem unlikely she married there it is, of course, not impossible.
Finally as a note of caution - as if any more were needed - don't forget that when we search online for census or marriage entries what we are actually searching are not the records themselves but manually transcribed indexes prepared by volunteers that do a sterling job - in fact I have done some of this myself for Ancestry. But of course mistrancriptions do happen. And, on the basis of what is known in the UK as "Sod's Law" the one entry that will be wrong is the very one you are looking for! Remember the example of Montague Druitt in the 1881 census who is listed in the manual index as Montague DRUK. And when you look at the original sheet the transcription is perfectly understandable.
Happy hunting guys!

[Suzi]

There's a L O T of potential conspiracy theories (sigh) re Mary...check out Mary under victims they're all in there OK ?

[curious]

There is NO way that 'Mary' was called a) Mary or b) Kelly- that's how she passed herself- along with her legend...Mind you Mc Carthy - I can't quite dismiss.

Who our 'Mary' was- I doubt we'll ever know- that's the way she/or someone wanted it- I reckon!...but what a way to go......if it was her ( Aggggghhhhh!!) Don't get me going!......

please get going. I'd like to know your thoughts.

why do you think she was never Mary Kelly?

And "that's the way she/or someone" ??? who ??? wanted it?

thoughts, please

curious

[Suzi]

We'll never know

Way too many by the ways and dubious references to Joe B- which let's face it that's all we have to go on!!! (Read to me etc etc- Hmmmm with the alleged 'educated' Mary that doesn't fit!

We'll (SADLY) never know the truth I M H O

Looking for a Davies/Davis in the South Wales Haystack is like looking for that Williams/ Jones/Jenkins needle!!

OK- she MAY have spent some time after leaving Ireland (If she was ever there!) in Camarthen or wherever- moved onto Cardiff - maybe with the down at heel cousin or whatever- gone downhill via the Infirmary (!) and miraculously appeared in Whitechapel via Mrs B etc etc

There is NO way that 'Mary' was called a) Mary or b) Kelly- that's how she passed herself- along with her legend along to Joe et al except maybe...John Mc Carthy - I can't quite dismiss,,,some sorts of truths there maybe- I'm sure the Kendalls know more than they're about to say (Without prejudice).

Who our 'Mary' was- I doubt we'll ever know- that's the way she/or someone wanted it- I reckon!...but what a way to go......if it was her ( Aggggghhhhh!!) Don't get me going!......

[DVV]

she also sang irish songs according to a witness. could it be she never moved to wales?

just a thought.

Hi Joel,

I've never lived in Corsica - except for holidays - but I can sing the Corsican songs my father used to sing.
I have little doubt about her having lived in Wales.
The problem with Ireland is Barnett and mc Carthy conflicting accounts.

Amitiés,
David

[joelhall]

if she moved to wales when very young, why were her parents informed in ireland as dave states? i cant find the reference to them being nformed of death could anyone confirm this for me?

she also sang irish songs according to a witness. could it be she never moved to wales?

just a thought.

[DirectorDave]

Thanks Jukka,

14,186 words is a bit too much for me just now (640am have to go to bed!), but I will find the tiime to read it over the weekend and feedback my thoughts.

Dave

[j.r-ahde]

Hello DirectorDave!

Well, let's start with the life-story, that she told Joe Barnett;

There is a certain logic to it, but as a whole it doesn't make sense!

I did sort of crack the Enigma, but all I got was a pretty good presumption!

Because it is just a presumption, it can be read in a form of a short-story called "The confession-maker" in the Creative Writing and Expression section!

All the best
Jukka

[DirectorDave]

Hi JR.

I am not proporting to be bringing anything new to the table here.....I'm sure most things I could ever suggest have already been tried.

From the MJK Rippercast I am aware of the extensive research that has went into finding information on Mary (Birth/Marriage cetificate etc).

When I mean "Something Simple" I mean there is something we have wrong about Mary that is preventing us finding her.....rather than something simple we have not thought of.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello DirectorDave!

Well, I think, you find it easy to believe, that we have been looking for that needle in a haystack of Mary Kellys from the LVP London/Wales/Ireland for years...

Had it been that simple, the search for that needle would have been proven needless a long time ago!

All the best
Jukka

[DirectorDave]

I'm sure I read a while ago on casebook somewhere that Mary's Parents in Ireland were informed of her death.

If this was the case would in not cast doubt on the theory that Mary Kelly was not her real name? As mentioned earlier in the thread also the return of her effects to her brother.

Also if her father came looking for her as reported, does it not follow that he would make the effort to attend the funeral or inquest?

I think we are missing something simple here......and I'm sure the mystery can be solved.

Btw KENNY is also a popular name in Ireland.......also with the Nickname "Black Mary"......could it be as simple as Mary Black?

Good luck with the searches guys.

[joelhall]

well little luck after a day of searching, all ive come away with is mary kelly baptised on 11th may 1863, askeaton, limerick, ireland, parents michael kelly and o'shaugnessy. hardly lighting the world on fire i suspect, but nevertheless i will keep at it.

[joelhall]

well closest ive gotten so far is a marriage between a mary ann kelly and a john brook davis in 1881 in shoreditch hehe. funny how many coincidences there are when you look. still i will not give up hope. certainly if she existed theres a record somewhere and not just the death certificate.

i did find a mary (jane?) kelly living with a couple of other women on their own but i closed the tab by mistake (and safari doesnt let you get back old tabs) and now ive lost it

i will not give up hope just yet...

[KatBradshaw]

Do we have a definative list of names she used?? I believe that she used Lawrence on occaision. Fair Emma as a nickname. It is interesting to compare this with the comments being made on the Eddowes post as a lot is read in to her use of an alias but I think Kelly backs up the idea that this was common.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello joel!

In the "Dissertations" section there is an article named "The Origins of Mary Kelly" by Peter Birchwood. I don't swear, that it's The Mary Kelly, that he found. However, he made one of the most credible searches.

On the other hand, Sam Flynn presented Mary Ballina, a 17-year-old variety singer from 1881. No other information, but; since MJK was known to have been an artist of no mean degree, it could have been her. The only piece of art we know about her is singing. There isn't a last-name called Ballina in the LVP census, but Ballina is a small town in Limerick. Remember; MJK told about Limerick concerning her backround.

So; numerous possibilities.

When I started to track down Mary's real origins, I found Peter Birchwood's one sentence in his article worth thinking; check the most likely story first!

However, I didn't find the needle in the haystack of LVP Mary Kellies...

All the best
Jukka