mjks real name

[Bridewell]

Hello Colin. Could they have emigrated?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

I think La Fee Verte has answered that one with his (or her) first post! He or she looks to be a welcome addition to the forum.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

Saved!

Hi
Just looked again Mary Ann Kelly Married William Holloway sept 1886 at Newport.

I think you can rule her out.

In that case, I withdraw my admission of a c*ck-up as it was the same woman, but yes, I think she can be ruled out!

Regards, Bridewell

[Bridewell]

Oops!

Hi
Hope this helps
By the looks of it John thomas Hornblow married Mary Ann Holloway jun 1890 Cardiff.

Hi La Fee,

Welcome to the Boards!

It sort of helps in that it suggests that the Robert Downey living with the Hornblows in 1891 wasn't the one living with the Kellys in 1881. To put it another way, I made a wrong assumption in trying to use the Downey name to locate the Kellys. To put it yet another way - I cocked up - not for the first time!

Regards, Bridewell

[Cogidubnus]

Separate from the above, has anybody checked out the Kiely families of Limerick (of which there appear to be a fair few) ? Not sure how it would be pronounced (Keely?) but with a brogue I suppose Kelly and Kiely could seem similar...

Dave

[La fee verte]

Hi
Just looked again Mary Ann Kelly Married William Holloway sept 1886 at Newport.

I think you can rule her out.

[La fee verte]

Hi
Hope this helps
By the looks of it John thomas Hornblow married Mary Ann Holloway jun 1890 Cardiff.

[lynn cates]

emigrate

Hello Colin. Could they have emigrated?

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

At 19, Homfray St, Cardiff there is the following intriguing entry:

John Kelly Head Married 55 Gen Labourer Ireland with:
Margaret Kelly Wife Married 57 Wife Ireland
Helen Kelly Dau'r Unm 24 At Home Cardiff
John Kelly Son Unm 19 Gen Labourer Cardiff
Michael Flavin Boarder Married 24 Gen Labourer Ireland
Margaret Flavin " Married 27 Wife Cardiff
Robert Downey " Unm 6 Scholar Cardiff
James Shea " Unm 14 Scholar Ireland
Mary Flavin " Unm 3mths Infant Cardiff & finally
Mary Ann Kelly Dau'r Unm 16 No Occupation Cardiff

I suspect that both parents, who would have been in their mid-60's are dead by 1891, as I can't find them in the 1891 census. I have found a Robert Downey, (17) nephew of the Head of the Family, at an address in Cardiff with a Mary Ann Hornblow. Presumably, then, if this is the same individual, the Mary Ann can't be MJK... although her husband's name is John Thomas Hornblow! (I'm sure Ancestry was designed to torment us!).

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

maybe

Hello Colin. Thanks for posting this. Hope something turns up.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Cardiff

As others have observed, the various permutations have been tried in different combinations without success, including the possibility that she might have been a little older than she claimed. I've begun to wonder if she might be younger, perhaps having pretended to be older than her years after going "on the game" at a very young age:

At 19, Homfray St, Cardiff there is the following intriguing entry:

John Kelly Head Married 55 Gen Labourer Ireland with:
Margaret Kelly Wife Married 57 Wife Ireland
Helen Kelly Dau'r Unm 24 At Home Cardiff
John Kelly Son Unm 19 Gen Labourer Cardiff
Michael Flavin Boarder Married 24 Gen Labourer Ireland
Margaret Flavin " Married 27 Wife Cardiff
Robert Downey " Unm 6 Scholar Cardiff
James Shea " Unm 14 Scholar Ireland
Mary Flavin " Unm 3mths Infant Cardiff & finally
Mary Ann Kelly Dau'r Unm 16 No Occupation Cardiff

It's very unusual, in my experience, to find a member of the family listed in the census below boarders in this way. Was she in disgrace for some reason?
(Incidentally, her father, in the 1871 census, is a Coal Trimmer on a page where others are recorded as Iron Foundry Workers. I'll see if I can find the same family in the 1891 census....

(I do wish the tabulation would remain in place when I posted it.)

Regards, Bridewell.

[Sickert]

Sorry just had to answer the bottom question "if mickey's a mouse, and pluto's a dog, whats goofy?" He's a dog as well.

[DrHopper]

Hi all
Just a quick observation. Mary Jane Kelly was a Roman Catholic, and thus her name, when entered into the records, followed the RC way of doing things, and was Latinised. This is quite common, and for my own part, I have a Great Great Grandfather, James, who is buried under the name Jacobus (James being a derivation of the original, Jacob) - there are other examples too, but that is one that I particularly remember. Thus Mary Jane Kelly bcomes Marie Jeanette Kelly - there is no mystery as such, and no need to include "her life in France". She was simply a poor Irish immigrant (as indeed many of my own ancestors were), who fell into particulary hard times, and was unlucky on a cold November night in 1888.

Also, and this may also be of relevance. She was Catholic, and would thus almost certainly be fluent in Irish Gaelic. Could this be mistaken for Welsh? Why are we looking in Wales at all? She may have said she was Welsh simply to remove herself from the stigma of being an Irish immigrant, given the anti-Irish sentiment of the time, and this was then repeated by Barnett.

Anyhoo, these are my humble two-pennorth.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Phil!

Witty thoughts.

But probably someone has already tried that trail!

All the best
Jukka

[Phil H]

I haven't read everything on Casebook about MJK, and some of you are mighty knowledgable about the lady, so this may have been suggested before:

Part of the MJK "bio" is some time she supposedly spent in Cardiff with a "cousin" leading a "bad life".

If the cousin was - as somehave assumed - a prostitute who led MJK into such a life (but even if she just got drunk, and MJK was said to be quite violent when in her cups) - could there be any trace in the Cardiff Court records for either the cousin, MJK or both?

It's possible of course that much was lost in wartime bombing, or magistrates court records have been routinely destroyed, but a check by someone who knows how might give some new names or even leads.

A long-shot, but I have not seen it discussed previously.

I was also attracted to the idea - seen somewhere in a thread here - that the Guardsman-brother "Jonhto" might have been a misheard Ianto (especially if MJK was Welsh rather than Irish, or her brother was younger and born in Wales.

Phil

[miss marple]

Birth

If her name was Kelly we have a very promising birth entry that has always been there, which needs following up, Which means delving deep into Irish records.
Three siblings born to John Kelly and Anne McCarthy [ coincidence ] ? of CASTLETOWN LIMERICK

Mary Kelly born 1864
John Kelly born 1866
Peter Kelly born 1868
A birth date of 1864 is right for her death at 25,
John was 22 in 1888 old enough for a soldier.
I have not the resources for this, it would mean checking parish records for a marriage of John and Anne, addresses, possible births of other children and seeing if this Mary stayed or married in Limerick which would rule her out, or if she or the whole family disappear, possibly to Wales.
If anyone wants to take it on, its a big task, just tracing that one family.
Cheers Miss Marple