mjks real name

[DirectorDave]

Hi JR.

I am not proporting to be bringing anything new to the table here.....I'm sure most things I could ever suggest have already been tried.

From the MJK Rippercast I am aware of the extensive research that has went into finding information on Mary (Birth/Marriage cetificate etc).

When I mean "Something Simple" I mean there is something we have wrong about Mary that is preventing us finding her.....rather than something simple we have not thought of.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello DirectorDave!

Well, let's start with the life-story, that she told Joe Barnett;

There is a certain logic to it, but as a whole it doesn't make sense!

I did sort of crack the Enigma, but all I got was a pretty good presumption!

Because it is just a presumption, it can be read in a form of a short-story called "The confession-maker" in the Creative Writing and Expression section!

All the best
Jukka

[DirectorDave]

Thanks Jukka,

14,186 words is a bit too much for me just now (640am have to go to bed!), but I will find the tiime to read it over the weekend and feedback my thoughts.

Dave

[joelhall]

if she moved to wales when very young, why were her parents informed in ireland as dave states? i cant find the reference to them being nformed of death could anyone confirm this for me?

she also sang irish songs according to a witness. could it be she never moved to wales?

just a thought.

[DVV]

she also sang irish songs according to a witness. could it be she never moved to wales?

just a thought.

Hi Joel,

I've never lived in Corsica - except for holidays - but I can sing the Corsican songs my father used to sing.
I have little doubt about her having lived in Wales.
The problem with Ireland is Barnett and mc Carthy conflicting accounts.

Amitiés,
David

[Suzi]

We'll never know

Way too many by the ways and dubious references to Joe B- which let's face it that's all we have to go on!!! (Read to me etc etc- Hmmmm with the alleged 'educated' Mary that doesn't fit!

We'll (SADLY) never know the truth I M H O

Looking for a Davies/Davis in the South Wales Haystack is like looking for that Williams/ Jones/Jenkins needle!!

OK- she MAY have spent some time after leaving Ireland (If she was ever there!) in Camarthen or wherever- moved onto Cardiff - maybe with the down at heel cousin or whatever- gone downhill via the Infirmary (!) and miraculously appeared in Whitechapel via Mrs B etc etc

There is NO way that 'Mary' was called a) Mary or b) Kelly- that's how she passed herself- along with her legend along to Joe et al except maybe...John Mc Carthy - I can't quite dismiss,,,some sorts of truths there maybe- I'm sure the Kendalls know more than they're about to say (Without prejudice).

Who our 'Mary' was- I doubt we'll ever know- that's the way she/or someone wanted it- I reckon!...but what a way to go......if it was her ( Aggggghhhhh!!) Don't get me going!......

[curious]

There is NO way that 'Mary' was called a) Mary or b) Kelly- that's how she passed herself- along with her legend...Mind you Mc Carthy - I can't quite dismiss.

Who our 'Mary' was- I doubt we'll ever know- that's the way she/or someone wanted it- I reckon!...but what a way to go......if it was her ( Aggggghhhhh!!) Don't get me going!......

please get going. I'd like to know your thoughts.

why do you think she was never Mary Kelly?

And "that's the way she/or someone" ??? who ??? wanted it?

thoughts, please

curious

[Suzi]

There's a L O T of potential conspiracy theories (sigh) re Mary...check out Mary under victims they're all in there OK ?

[Chris Scott]

Hi guys
I think the "missing something simple" argument may well prove to have some mileage in it
It could be, for example, that we are looking for a Kelley, not a Kelly...
We also have to bear in mind that the dates of her life as reported would fall in very badly with her appearance in UK records. At the time of the 1871 census she would have been (if 25 at death) about 8 years old, in which case it is quite feasible the family would not have yet moved to Wales. If that is the case, then the only document of UK records we could be pretty certain that she would appear in is the 1881 census, presumably the Welsh census if we accept Barnett's dating which would appear to suggest that she came to London in or about 1884. Logically (not that that has so far led anywhere!) she should be down as Mary Davies as Barnett's account would lead us to believe that she married in or about 1879 and her husband died in 1881 or 1882.
So, if the family had NOT moved to Wales by 1871 then in the available documentation (in terms of census) then we are looking for Mary Kelly on just ONE DAY of her time in the UK as by the time of the 1891 census she was, of course, dead and buried. So if on this day (3 April 1881) Kelly had been for whatever reason out of the country (for example, visiting relatives in Ireland) we would not find her.....
The other alleged document is, of course, problematic and that is her marriage certificate. Barnett's account here certainly does suggest that the name Kelly may be assumed in that he asserted two alleged facts:
1) That Kelly was her maiden name
2) She was legally married
The name of her spouse he initially reported as Davis or Davies, then said he didnt know the surname, then opted for Davies as more likely!
Of course any search for this purported marriage assumes that it occurred in the UK, specificially in Wales. Because the alleged spouse was named Davies and was a miner, it is not unreasonable to assume that he was Welsh! However, again there is no guarantee that the couple married in Wales, or even in the UK. We simply do not know how often Kelly would have gone back to the "old country" if at all and although it may seem unlikely she married there it is, of course, not impossible.
Finally as a note of caution - as if any more were needed - don't forget that when we search online for census or marriage entries what we are actually searching are not the records themselves but manually transcribed indexes prepared by volunteers that do a sterling job - in fact I have done some of this myself for Ancestry. But of course mistrancriptions do happen. And, on the basis of what is known in the UK as "Sod's Law" the one entry that will be wrong is the very one you are looking for! Remember the example of Montague Druitt in the 1881 census who is listed in the manual index as Montague DRUK. And when you look at the original sheet the transcription is perfectly understandable.
Happy hunting guys!

[curious]

There's a L O T of potential conspiracy theories (sigh) re Mary...check out Mary under victims they're all in there OK ?

I've done that and have some thoughts of my own.

Thought you might have others.

curious

[Suzi]

Been on the case too long I guess- what do you think?

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

Mary Kelly, Mary Ann Kelly, Mary Anne Kelly, Mary Jane Kelly, Mary Jeanette Kelly, Mary Janette Kelly, Marie Jeanette Kelly,Mary Janet Kelly, Ann Kelly, Jane Kelly, Black Mary, Mary O'Brien,Fair Emma, Ginger, Mary Davis, Mary Ann Davis, Mary Jane Davis, Mary Davies, Mary Ann Davies, Mary Jane Davies.....

and that lot is just all the ones I have either seen in newspapers, books or remaining possibilities.

Then, like Chris says... Kelley, Keely, Kellie, Kelli, Kaleigh.
Davids, Davey, Daveys.

Not counting all the possible Fleming, Hutchinson, Stone, Morganstone, Morgenstein, Barnett, Barrett, Barnet possibilities.

The list is almost endless.
Why so many possibilities?
It seems to me that just about every name and possibility has been looked at by someone somewhere. I'm sure Chris Scott himself has spent more hours than he cares to admit searching for this woman.

So we come to the ultimate point. What if this woman wasn't really Mary Kelly?

After that little list...it must surely be a possibility.

best wishes

Phil

[Chris Scott]

Hi Phil
There are also other odd features about her name that we get from the early reports of the murder:
1) Some of those who knew her said they knew her only as "Mary Jane" and did not know a surname
2) Barnett was insistent that the French looking form of her name - which some have theorised was an affectation dating from her period in France and the West End "gay" house - was the true and original form and indeed it is this form - Marie Jeanette - that appears on her death certificate
3) Where did the other two commonly quoted names for the Millers Court victim - Lizzie Fisher and Mary Jane Lawrence - come from? She was also said to have been known as Mary Jane McCarthy.

[Suzi]

Great stuff here boys for 'curious' but the problem IMHO is tht she wasn't a Mary or a Kelly or a Davis/Davies in the first place. Therein lies the problem... I hate to say it- I don't think we'll ever get to the bottom of who 'Mary' was (sigh) sad but true..........

All we have is what she allegedly said to Joe Barnett- and that was only from Joe-his comments and inquest remarks...Really there's nothing to go on is there?

We'll never know!

Unless........well we live in some sort of hope

Maybe IF the Mc C stuff bubbled to the surface - but I'm not going there- That's their family and Their decisions

[Chris Scott]

I agree with you completely and said so in the book
I believe that the most likely explanantion is that, for whatever reason, Kelly used an assumed name, surely not that uncommon a practice for one in her circumstances.
Of course mention of the Barnett account raises more unanswered (and probably unanswerable) questions:
- Did the whole account come from Kelly or did Barnett embellish it?
- How much of the account did Barnett believe?
etc.

I think it highly unlikely that we will EVER know the true identity and background of the woman who died in Millers Court... but that doen't stop us looking...