Did Astracan kill Mary Kelly

[kensei]

Ok, I'll say this as simply as possible. I think that people are trying to figure out what happened to MJK far too logically. Mary Jane was probably an alcoholic, and when a drunk is drunk logic goes out the window. I really think that that creates a whole dimension of possibilities that do not need to conform to any kind of logic. Even a person who was afraid of the Ripper and intended to be careful could very easily lose every bit of that caution in demon alcohol. The "instant trust" factor that Ben cast doubt on must be viewed in this perspective.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Ben,
Ok, you paint a picture how it was impossible that a man dressed in that garb, could possibly survive in that area , without being accosted by ruffians, or the vigilente committee.
But if Hutch was being honest that is precisely what happened.
Question. Did people of influence in Whitechapel all walk around 'dressed down' on a night out?
What if Astracan was a fearless individual, which if Jack he would have been.
What if we in 2009, are overplaying the risk he was taking , mayby he was known in the area, as a handful.
We just do not know, but we cannot dismiss Hutchinsons statement without more proof.
Regards Richard.

[Ben]

Hi Kensei,

Whoever Hutchinson may be- I think that Christopher Scott did an admirable job in his book "Will the Real Mary Kelly...?" of establishing through a search of public records who our popular character of George Hutchinson probably was (though not certainly), that being George William Topping Hutchinson

I don't think Chris ever expressed the view in his book that the real Hutchinson was "probably" George William Topping Hutchinson. Only that he is the best known suggested identity, and that comes courtesy of the Ripper and the Royals with included the claim, by the man's son, Reg, that his father saw Lord Randolph Churchill the Ripper and was paid to keep quiet about it. Chris asked me on the podcast what I thought of that particular identification, and I responded to the effect that I considered it highly improbable on current evidence, an opinion that I do not deviate from now. I would respectfully submit that there are plenty of discussions on the identity of Hutchinson, and that it is not immediately germane to a discussion of Astrakhan man's potential culpability in the ripper murders. All I would say is that the infantalization of Hutchinson into some naive, smitten 22-year-old has the unfortunate effect of reducing the whole Kelly saga into the most formulaic of pantomimes, with Hutchinson as the Wishy-Washy/Buttons character (naive, loves the girl, but never gets her) and Astrakhan as the Jafar/Abanazer villain who looks and acts the part in every respect.

I just get the impression that the reality of the situation was a lot less black and white than that, not least because the Hutch-Smitten hypothesis is simply not consistent with his failure to alert the authorities the moment he learned of the murder.

I think that after having been glimpsed by a few witnesses at the prior murder sites dressed in his usual getup of a "dark overcoat and deerstalker or peaked cap," and after having become the most hunted criminal in the world, he had changed his appearance to that of Astrakan.

Sorry, I'm just not understanting the suggested mentality here. Yes, I've been getting away with bloody murder, partially on account of my inconspicuous attire, and to ensure that I continue getting away with it, I'll change all that and adopt the most conspicuous attire imaginable - accessories and clothes that are almost guaranteed to repel the people I want to put at ease, and attract negative attention from the ones I wish to avoid at all costs...It just doesn't convince, and the notion that "A deranged serial killer just might..." doesn't avail. Firstly, a person who gets his kicks from dispatching prostitutes in a brutal fashion isn't necessarily one who throws all logic, common sense and rationality to the wind, and he needn't be "deranged" in the chaotic, disorganized sense.

I stuggle, too, with the "charm" hypothesis, as though the average Spitalfields prostitute needed to be charmed with elegant attire and gold watches to solicit their submission. I'd suggest that they were far more likely to be deterred by such a conspicious outsider, however intoxicated they were, especially if his appearance happened to tally with the popular bogeyman image associated with the ripper. Far more likely to put them at ease was the tried and tested local; the familiar face in the district, which may explain why she was observed taking home the shabby likes of Blotchy.

wanting to look out for her safety

But how could he possibly acheive that be loitering opposite her home, with no view into the room? From that vantage point, he was utterly useless as a preventative measure against her death.

After 45 minutes of watching on this particular night, he gave up.

And never came back, either to see if she was still safe or if she was now alone?

Both of them ended up getting accused of being the world's most notorious serial killer.

It's better than the alternative, which is Jack as the sinister toff of popular lore. You observe that Barnett and Hutchinson both "end up getting accused of being the world's most notorious serial killer" as though their outward normality somehow weakens their candidacy, and that, by extention, in order to warrant the mantle of "world's most notorious serial killer", the individual in question must be some brilliantly clever, conspicious master of disguise. I think that takes us a long way from historical precedent myself.

[Ben]

Ok, you paint a picture how it was impossible that a man dressed in that garb, could possibly survive in that area , without being accosted by ruffians, or the vigilente committee. But if Hutch was being honest that is precisely what happened.

And if my auntie had bollocks, she'd be my uncle.

It's simple, really. I don't consider it remotely likely that it could have transpired that way, for aforementioned reasons, and that is why I don't believe he was being honest.

Did people of influence in Whitechapel all walk around 'dressed down' on a night out?

A 2.00am. At the height of the ripper scare. In an area well-known for its "vicious, semi-criminal" element.

Yes, I think they did.

What if Astracan was a fearless individual, which if Jack he would have been.

I wouldn't say the killer was a completely fearless individual, no. But it's no use not being fearful if you can't do a damn thing about the negative attention you'd be attracting from potential muggers, vigiliants and wannabe ripper-hunters. You can be fearless of sharks, but they won't stop one eating you if it feels like it. It's not as if a lack of fear eradicates the danger.

We just do not know, but we cannot dismiss Hutchinsons statement without more proof

I can't dismiss it completely without proof, which is why I don't. I just point out the numerous implausibe elements in it.

[lynn cates]

questions

Hello Celtic. I normally say little about MJK as the complications are enormous--even for one of the C5. But:

1) He may have been waiting for Astracan to leave to get some money off Kelly.

Unlikely. I think MJK had already hit HIM up and failed. Inference: she's broke.

2) He may have been waiting for Astracan to leave so he could stay with Kelly for the night as it was cold.

Did not Hutch have a lodging? Why wait 45 minutes in the cold?

3) He may have been waiting to rob Astracan.

Possibly. But would it not be unwise later to seek the police and give testimony thereto?

The best.
LC

[celticsun]

Hello Celtic. I normally say little about MJK as the complications are enormous--even for one of the C5. But:

1) He may have been waiting for Astracan to leave to get some money off Kelly.

Unlikely. I think MJK had already hit HIM up and failed. Inference: she's broke.

2) He may have been waiting for Astracan to leave so he could stay with Kelly for the night as it was cold.

Did not Hutch have a lodging? Why wait 45 minutes in the cold?

3) He may have been waiting to rob Astracan.

Possibly. But would it not be unwise later to seek the police and give testimony thereto?

The best.
LC

Hi LC,

1) But MJK would have no longer been broke after being paid for her services by Astracan.

2) Probably not, due to lack of funds. That would explain him waiting 45 minutes in the cold for Astracan to leave. He lived at the Victoria Working Men's home in Commercial Street. I don't really don't know the particulars of this. Is it a lodging house (pay by the night) or something else? It would be much appreciated if anyone could enlighten me about this. Thanks.

3) My quess is that he contacted the authorities because he had sighted by Miller's Court by Sarah Keyler close to the time the murder. Of course he would not tell the authorities that his purpose was to rob Astracan. Anything but.

I too have remained silent about MJK because of the enigmatic nature of the evidence concerning this murder but am tempted to jump into the fire anyway. Fools rush where Angels fear to tread.

Sincerely,

Celticsun

[lynn cates]

pro et contra

Hello Celtic. That helps, but my reasoning is this.

1) But MJK would have no longer been broke after being paid for her services by Astracan.

True. But what was a single trick worth? Surely less than a shilling.

2) Probably not, due to lack of funds. That would explain hi[s] waiting 45 minutes in the cold for Astracan to leave. He lived at the Victoria Working Men's home in Commercial Street.

What were his plans for the night? His meeting with MJK sounded like a chance, casual meeting.

3) My [g]uess is that he contacted the authorities because he had sighted by Miller's Court by Sarah Keyler close to the time [of] the murder. Of course he would not tell the authorities that his purpose was to rob Astracan. Anything but.

But surely such a sighting would have been far less damning had he left at once? After 45 minutes, one tends to smell a rat.

The best.
LC

[Sam Flynn]

That Hutchinson makes no mention whatsoever of those domestic arrangements,and him being a long time friend appears to me rather odd.

To be fair on the guy, Harry, he did mention loads of other things

[celticsun]

Hello Celtic. That helps, but my reasoning is this.

1) But MJK would have no longer been broke after being paid for her services by Astracan.

True. But what was a single trick worth? Surely less than a shilling.

2) Probably not, due to lack of funds. That would explain hi[s] waiting 45 minutes in the cold for Astracan to leave. He lived at the Victoria Working Men's home in Commercial Street.

What were his plans for the night? His meeting with MJK sounded like a chance, casual meeting.

3) My [g]uess is that he contacted the authorities because he had sighted by Miller's Court by Sarah Keyler close to the time [of] the murder. Of course he would not tell the authorities that his purpose was to rob Astracan. Anything but.

But surely such a sighting would have been far less damning had he left at once? After 45 minutes, one tends to smell a rat.

The best.
LC

Hi LC,

First of all let me correct myself. In my previous post I mistakenly referred to Sarah Lewis as Sarah Keyler.

1) I have no idea what a single trick was worth but considering MJK's youth and reputed beauty I'm sure that she could charge at the upper end of the range. Also, the fact that the act took place indoors as opposed to an outdoor "quickie" on a cold night had to be worth something. MJK had already played Astracan for a handkerchief and he fairly dripped money, a fact that MJK can hardly been unaware of. Other factors that could have increased her fee were the amount of time requested by Astracan and the nature of the act requested. Again, Hutchinson's motive may have been lodgings or lodgings with sex.

2) I don't know what his plans for the night were, either. It is possible that he didn't have any concrete plans. His meeting with MJK does sound like chance, casual meeting. I don't know where the Victoria Working Men's home is on Commercial Street but Dorset Street dead ends at Commercial Street if the map that I have is correct. To me, it sounds like Huchinson was just hanging around looking for "opportunity" in whatever form that he could find it.

3) Sarah Lewis gave a police statement on Nov. 9th, but I don't believe her information became general knowledge until the inquest held on Nov. 12th. Hutchinson gave his statement to the police at 6pm, Nov. 12th, very shortly after the inquest. Coincidence is always possible but is seems as though Hutchinson learned of Sarah Lewis' testimony at or shortly after the inquest and covered his back with all due haste. Perhaps Hutchinson stated that he was looking into Miller's Court for 45 minutes simply because it was true. He had learned the telling lies only exposed himself to being caught in those lies and, therefore only lied when necessary. Like about his reason for being in Miller's Court.

Sincerely,

Celticsun

[The Good Michael]

That Hutchinson makes no mention whatsoever of those domestic arrangements,and him being a long time friend appears to me rather odd.It might have aided his story to suggest he hung around fearfull for her safety,as he knew she was living alone.Did he intentionally avoid the subject for some reason?

Harry,

I imagine the scene as more of an interrogation with Hutch answering questions. A young man, in a lousy neighborhood, who is probably quite streetwise, would know better than to volunteer extraneous information. He would have just stuck to the story he was telling while having to answer whatever extra questions the police asked him, without volunteering any extra. He just wanted a reward (maybe), but not the Spanish Inquisition. (here we go)

Cheers,

Mike
Mike

[lynn cates]

points

Hello Celtic. I agree that Mary could command much more that the average 3 or 4d. Hence, I was generous and let it be close to a shilling. Seem right?

I presume that Hutch had some plan or other for the night. It seems unlikely that seeing MJK altered that.

It seems that, had he stayed for only a minute or so, there would be no police suspicion. If I were Abberline, however, and heard the story, my first question would be, "'ere now. What were yer doin' 'angin' around for 45 minutes mate?"

The best.
LC

[harry]

Yes Sam,he did,but nothing really of a domestic nature.Liken the situation to this.You know a couple living together.At two o'clock one morning you see her take a stranger to where they live,and after 45 minutes give up waiting for him to come out.Would not you be surprised at the situation,unless that is, you knew the couple had broken up and the male had moved out.
Hutchinson claimed aquaintance of Kelly going back quite a while.It would surprise me if he knew nothing of Barnett or the domestic situation with him and Kelly.

[belinda]

I have not read the whole thread so forgive repitition.

*The Police took Hutchinson seriously at the time

*Hutchinson could have embelished the description of Astrakhan man one possible reason - to portray Mary as having a richer class of customer

*With Barnett out of the way I think Hutchinson was angling to be Marys next "protector"and move into Millers Court with her

[c.d.]

Hello Celtic. I agree that Mary could command much more that the average 3 or 4d. Hence, I was generous and let it be close to a shilling. Seem right?

I presume that Hutch had some plan or other for the night. It seems unlikely that seeing MJK altered that.

It seems that, had he stayed for only a minute or so, there would be no police suspicion. If I were Abberline, however, and heard the story, my first question would be, "'ere now. What were yer doin' 'angin' around for 45 minutes mate?"

The best.
LC

Hi Lynn,

And if Abberline didn't ask that question he would have been a complete fool. It's also extremely hard to believe that Abberline would not have discussed Hutchinson with Monro and wouldn't Monro have asked the same question? My guess is that Hutchinson was asked and had a believable answer.

c.d.

[celticsun]

Hi LC,

I'm not familiar with English currency but if a shilling = 8 or 10d that sounds about right.

I assume that Hutchinson's plan was to go home after the action died down but was willing to change them if a more promising situation arose. Not so very different than going to a tavern today and going home after last call.

Granted that it would have been less suspicious to the police if he were to have said that he was only at Miller's Court for a minute as opposed to 45 minutes but I am certain that he would have been questioned concerning his purpose for being in the area in any case. At any rate, unless Hutchinson was the murderer (and let me state that I believe that the chance of this is next to nothing) he would have been in no danger with either answer.

Sincerely,

Celticsun