Did Mary know her attacker?

[paul emmett]

yet a morning murder has never been a serious contender.
Why?
Regards Richard..

Hi, Richard.

I think most folks go with the Doctors' reports: for time of death, Bond says 1:00-2:00; Phillips says 5:00-6:00. Then there's the timing of it. If Maxwell sees MJK out and about at 9:00, there's not much time to get back home, undress, light a fire, kill, mutilate, . . .. And if she vomited at 8, there's also the fish dinner issue. Possible, some say, but not very likely. What do you think?

[Ben]

Hi Brad,

Apologies for overlooking your post, and thanks for the smile.

However there is no reason to believe they thought George Hutchinson was an out right lier.

This topic was amongst the first to resurface after the crash, but it would be very difficult for the police to have discredited Hutchinson's evidence unless they suspected fabrication, at least with reference to his description. They could not, for example, justify ditching him on the assumption that Kelly ventured out post-Astrakhan.

All the best,
Ben

[Simon Wood]

Hi Don,

Thanks for clarifying the McCarthy/Bower time of 10.45 a.m.

Any thoughts on Paul Begg's Millers Court market porter 10.30 a.m. story?

Regards,

Simon

[Supe]

Simon,

I forgot to mention that, somewhat inexplicably, in its printed inquest testimony The Times quoted McCarthy as saying he sent Bowyer at 10:30, even though the other papers and the official transcript have him saying that he sent Bowyer at 10:45.

Michael,

Millers' Court was not a gated community nor were any of the residents under that delusion, so that there is no specific complaint against Kelly or anyone else bringing in transients is hardly surprising. As it is, there are contemporary newspaper interviews in which residents and neighbors did say that strange men were in and out of the court most nights. It was a "live and let live" sort of society.

Don.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mike,

Sure she could have entertained while the "Cats away"...but wouldn't one of her close courtyard friends have mentioned her bringing strange men in?

I can't see that they should have, especially those who may have been on the game themselves - honour among thieves, and all that. Perhaps, with a young firebrand like Kelly, the sensible thing was to turn a blind eye. I wouldn't be surprised if Barnett's didn't resort to the same tactic, his apparent "piety" perhaps being a case of over-protestation on his part. Let's not forget that they were poor together, and he may not have felt disposed to being too fussy as to where the money came from when it suited him.

Anyhow - that's way off topic. Just doing you the courtesy of a reply

Hi Michael,

You say that Mary's needs were met that night and that she had no need to go out but what about the rent money? And even if she had somehow managed to get the money why give up a weekend night the best time to make money. She still needed money for food, drink, fuel for the fire etc. in the following days.

c.d.

Hi cd,

And thanks for the nice way you challenge a point. The arrears were as McCarthy said, "got as best you can", implying perhaps that Mary had some legal right to stay in the room regardless of the arrears, as long as some money was received against rent. He may have been nice to her, and carried her a bit...or he may have had some legal restrictions on what constituted eviction type situations.

And to work all night meant she would miss most of Mayors Day, something which she clearly was looking forward to.

All I can say cd is that her need for food, her need for booze, and her need for shelter do not seem to be such that she would feel compelled to work in the rain. She was fed, drunk and in her own room. Thats the one nice thing about living a seemingly hopeless life....theres always tomorrow..not to plan for of course.... but thats when her luck will change for the better. Like a miracle.

The irony here is that she effectively halted Mayors Day.

My best cd.

[c.d.]

Hi Michael,

You say that Mary's needs were met that night and that she had no need to go out but what about the rent money? And even if she had somehow managed to get the money why give up a weekend night the best time to make money. She still needed money for food, drink, fuel for the fire etc. in the following days.

c.d.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Michael,
All of us on Casebook have opinions regarding each murder which may have been blamed on JTR,with reference to the victim known as Mary kelly which most have us believe is the key to the series, because of the many options avaliable in trying to decifer witnesses statements, and all of us attempting to better one another, we all arrive back at ground zero.
It surely is a fact that at the inquest of Mary Jane Kelly .Aka whatever...we have a sworn witness stating that she saw the victim alive several hours after the medical evidence suggested otherwise, gave a verbal interpretation of their meeting, along with a description of a male in her company at that sighting,yet we still ignore the obvious and go along with the most unlikely night prowler and the rather clever means of entry through a broken window.
I have explained on Casebook an explanation for Hutchinsons Astracan man, also an explanation for the reported cry, plus many other'Stuck in the mud theorys' yet a morning murder has never been a serious contender.
Why?
Regards Richard..

[Supe]

Simon,

Reliance upon contemporary newspaper stories for either consistency or accuracy is usually a losing proposition while researching JtR. And all the more when dealing with thr events in Miller's Court.

As it was, the East London Observer had McCarthy sending Bowyer at "10 a.m."; the Manchester Guardian quoted McCarthy as saying he sent Bowyer "[a]bout half-past ten this morning", and the Daily Telegraph later cited a telegraph message from Scotland Yard about the discovery of the body that began "Found at 10:30 a.m....."

Regardless, most newspapers, the statements given the police by McCarthy and Bowyer and their inquest testimony peg the time at 10:45.

Don.

We don't "know" that Mary very likely did not bring men home while Barnett was there - we might speculate upon it, but we certainly can't say that we "know" any such thing.Never heard the expression, "While the cat's away the mice will play", Mike?

Incidentally, the absence of the cat needn't have been a permanent arrangement either. Men worked long shifts in those days, and Mary is likely to have had the room to herself for something like 12-14 hours a day (or longer), if we take some of the typical working-patterns of that time and place into account.

Hi Sam,

Well it would make Barnett's contention that he objected to her "working the streets" seem odd. And it again requires that we inject something new into the story of Mary Kellys life to fit the suspected MO of Jack the Ripper. Sure she could have entertained while the "Cats away"...but wouldn't one of her close courtyard friends have mentioned her bringing strange men in? And that doesnt explain her constant poverty either...for she was likely suffering financially, by Joe restricting her outside work while he was there.

Its probably why he comes every day to give her some money...except he couldn't on the 8th...to try and convince her he can provide for her so she doesn't have to solicit. But Joe didn't think about what we do know about Mary Kelly, and that is she used to have fine dresses, and was perhaps an escort for someone while in Paris. She worked in a bordello. Joe couldn't make enough money to keep Mary drunk, let alone happy...so that is why, even though "he was nice" to her, she had to move on.

In modern day, this would be a supermodel with a serious drug habit that dates only pushers of her drug...or rich guys, regardless of their looks. She is rewarded for "just being herself" by these types....who all want to boink her. And she in return makes them think they can...as long as the drug of choice is flowing. I believe so was Mary. I think she got fed and drunk November 8th by sidling up to Blotchy Man, and used a pleasant song to douse the flames of desire he might have when he was in her room. I think she took money from both Barnett and Flemming, letting each believe they were her "special one"...and funnily enough, since I am so opposed to his presence in discussions about this night, I could see her just walking up to men she knew and asking for money for doing nothing....just being sweet Mary Kelly.

This isn't just a Victorian Tale, its timeless. Attractive Women who for whatever reason fall into addictions,... that are fed by lifestyles they hate....or to try and forget who or what they are.

My best regards Sam.

[Sam Flynn]

We know that Mary very likely did not bring men into Millers Court for paid sex while Barnett was there

We don't "know" that Mary very likely did not bring men home while Barnett was there - we might speculate upon it, but we certainly can't say that we "know" any such thing.

, and since he has gone we have no reason to think anything had changed.

Never heard the expression, "While the cat's away the mice will play", Mike? Incidentally, the absence of the cat needn't have been a permanent arrangement either. Men worked long shifts in those days, and Mary is likely to have had the room to herself for something like 12-14 hours a day (or longer), if we take some of the typical working-patterns of that time and place into account.

Hi All,

There's a intriguing footnote in Paul Begg's 'The Facts'.

p.490—f. 106 (Barnes & Noble Hardback Edition)

"McCarthy said that he sent Thomas Bowyer to collect the rent at 10.45 a.m., but the police recorded the time of the discovery as 10.30. A market porter leaving Millers Court about 10.30 a.m. found the police already in charge of Millers Court . . ."

Does anyone know of any provenance for (a) the police recording the time of discovery as 10.30, or (b) the market porter story?

Many thanks,

Regards,

Simon

Hello there Simon, nice to see you,

That is an interesting story, although its the first time Ive heard of it. Because as you've noted, Bowyer was only sent to collect the rent at 10:45am, and he still had to tramp back to McCarthy's office so he could beetle on back with him, so he could see for himself, then beetle on down to Commercial Street station, then back to the room with Police. Which would have the police first "notified" around 11-11:15am, when they returned with McCarthy.

I also noted in the inquest that McCarthy was said to comment on sending Bowyer for the rent and arrears in this way,.."Rent was to be paid weekly. Arrears are got as best you can".

Perhaps this little story about someone preceding the police and Bowyer to the courtyard was picked up from someone in the Carrie Maxwell camp. Or was spawned from that tale.

My best regards Simon.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

There's a intriguing footnote in Paul Begg's 'The Facts'.

p.490—f. 106 (Barnes & Noble Hardback Edition)

"McCarthy said that he sent Thomas Bowyer to collect the rent at 10.45 a.m., but the police recorded the time of the discovery as 10.30. A market porter leaving Millers Court about 10.30 a.m. found the police already in charge of Millers Court . . ."

Does anyone know of any provenance for (a) the police recording the time of discovery as 10.30, or (b) the market porter story?

Many thanks,

Regards,

Simon

Hi Michael,

Why would Mary feel safer on the street as opposed to her own room when all the previous victims had been killed in the street?

c.d.

Hi cd,

I would'nt think she would feel safer at all cd, in fact I would think she would feel much safer indoors, in her own room, with her door blocked like Elizabeth Prater. But I would also think street whores dont have the luxury of strange men being able to find them when they are indoors at home, since most stayed in transient dwellings, so street whores go where they are expected to be seen after midnight by street clients so they can make money to pay for their transients bed...in Marys case, unnecessary that evening...or they pay for food and drink...in Marys case, already dealt with.

cd, I think perhaps you must have lived in one small room to understand why someone would be protective of that space, and particularly a woman, while a killer is known to be killing women in her line of work. You may say...well, thats why she now uses her room...which is all well and good except that there is no justification at all for that conclusion. We know that Mary very likely did not bring men into Millers Court for paid sex while Barnett was there, and since he has gone we have no reason to think anything had changed.

Richard, this was very good and quite true...."If one takes the Kelly murder as a modern day criminal investigation, we would have the last witness to have seen the victim alive giving evidence, also the description of any person or persons seen with the victim at that time."

This however is not true ..."Clearly therefore like it or not , the most likely person to have killed Mjk, given the limited time avaliable, was the Market porter in Plaid seen with her outside Ringers, this being the case."

It is very clear whom police believed was the last man seen in the company of Mary Kelly. From November 13th, until Nov 15-16th, it was Astrakan Man. From November 16th until today,... it is Blotchy Man, the person seen by Mary Ann Cox with Mary Kelly arriving at her room before midnight. Should you have any doubts about that I suggest you review all the press after November 16th that references Marys murder suspect.

As you can clearly see, there is plenty to discuss about that night and Mary Kelly that doesn't involve "witnesses" the police already dismissed 120 years ago.

George Hutchinson was not believed more than 3 days...and Caroline Maxwell was not believed at all.

My best regards.

[richardnunweek]

Hi all,
If one takes the Kelly murder as a modern day criminal investigation, we would have the last witness to have seen the victim alive giving evidence, also the description of any person or persons seen with the victim at that time.
Clearly therefore like it or not , the most likely person to have killed Mjk, given the limited time avaliable, was the Market porter in Plaid seen with her outside Ringers, this being the case. proberly what kelly considered to have been a early trick turned out to have been a bit more then that...
Regards Richard.