Did Mary know her attacker?

[celee]

Hi again,

Mike, you're correct, I cant seem to find a version that has Barnett saying it specifically, but Julia did say "he would not let her go out on the streets", and when added with Barnett's objection to having a woman who whores herself out, ...in the same line of work as Mary,... staying with them, it would seem unlikely that she brought men in, or was even allowed to go out working very often. In other words, I don't think Barnett's objection to her "work" is unclear.

Brad,

On Hutchinson, believing his account of Mary Kelly on the early morning of November 8th is your perogative, but since the police dismissed it as being relevant, anything you conclude based on the statement Hutch makes Monday night about a man with Mary, or seeing Mary outdoors, will be laid on very suspect foundations. You say Why not start entertaining in her room?..Well, for one thing, until Mary Kellys death it was believed the killer struck only on the streets, and only whores who were apparently actively soliciting clients at the time.

The police may have dismissed the man Hutchinson saw Kelly with as the ripper but Abberline did believe his story after interviewing him. It does apear that later Abberline would dismiss the description that Hutchinson gave but for what reason, we do not know.

If a woman is afraid of the streets because a killer kills "street" women out there, and she doesn't seem to like her line of work anyway, as expressed to a friend, then how is her room anything but the absolute safest and most desirable place to be? And why would she ever bring a stranger from the streets to her own room, during a killing spree of whores at work, that she was in fear of.

Most every prostitute regrets their line of work but they keep on doing the job.

She may have been afraid of the ripper. However most prostitutes were afraid of the Ripper and they still kept on working. I believe that Abberline and Macnaughten both described their frustration on that part.

Kelly needed money. She picks up the Ripper it is that simple. She was desperate enough to take the chance. If she is prostituting he could have killed her out doors as well. It makes no difference if she is working outside or indoors she is dead.


Best regards.

Your friend, Brad

Hi again,

Mike, you're correct, I cant seem to find a version that has Barnett saying it specifically, but Julia did say "he would not let her go out on the streets", and when added with Barnett's objection to having a woman who whores herself out, ...in the same line of work as Mary,... staying with them, it would seem unlikely that she brought men in, or was even allowed to go out working very often. In other words, I don't think Barnett's objection to her "work" is unclear.

Brad,

On Hutchinson, believing his account of Mary Kelly on the early morning of November 8th is your perogative, but since the police dismissed it as being relevant, anything you conclude based on the statement Hutch makes Monday night about a man with Mary, or seeing Mary outdoors, will be laid on very suspect foundations. You say Why not start entertaining in her room?..Well, for one thing, until Mary Kellys death it was believed the killer struck only on the streets, and only whores who were apparently actively soliciting clients at the time.

If a woman is afraid of the streets because a killer kills "street" women out there, and she doesn't seem to like her line of work anyway, as expressed to a friend, then how is her room anything but the absolute safest and most desirable place to be? And why would she ever bring a stranger from the streets to her own room, during a killing spree of whores at work, that she was in fear of.

On the case of Blotchy man, the only conclusion one can make about his presence there that night is as an invited guest of Mary's, one that she entertained with song. To put two and two together and figure he also may have paid for her drinks and food isn't a real stretch either.

Best regards.

[celee]

Hi all,

Fortunately this isn't a salesman/client situation where I must have you all agree with me so that I can earn a living.

The only man we know aside from Joe Barnett and Joe Flemming, that visited Marys room is Blotchy man, all by courtyard witness accounts. Joe Barnett objected to Marys selling herself on the streets...I don't think its wise to disregard his choice of words, and if he didn't like her selling herself outdoors, you can be pretty damn sure he wouldn't like her performing sex acts with other men in the bed he sleeps in each night either.

I do not dismiss Hutchinson's story.

So until Joe moves out, by her lovers testimony, it is unlikely Mary entertained paying clients in her room. We know that Mary Ann Cox went out a few times, and we dont know if she brought anyone back in with her...and from the way she is described in the press, she needed the advantage of a warm bed and room to entice clients and compete with younger, more attractive street whores. But we cant say for sure even she brings men in.

I agree it is unlikely that Kelly entertained clients out of her room while Barnett was stlill around.

So I would think on the weight of what we do know, versus the weight of the supposition that she would start whoring in her room, even if we don't know of any occasion where she does that...and we have reason to believe she didn't while Joe lived there, ..on balance I'm quite comfortable with my position stated.

Why not start entertaining clients in her home, Barnetts gone. It was a lot safer then entertaining on the streets. No chance of getting caught in her home.

Blotchy Man cannot be considered as a stranger seeking sex, because we have testimony that Mary was singing to the man for over an hour, off and on. I suggest the "off" times were when she ate a bit of the food they brought in. By all appearances, Blotchy Man escorted Mary home, and enjoyed her company for a bit.

Blotchy could have been a stranger and he could have been seeking sex. Men and women meet all the time in bars or were ever and go home with eachother. It happends everynight in Daytona. The bear and Dinner could have been the price of the party.

And Please don't suggest that whores didn't have friendly male acquaintances....thats as accurate as saying all whores whore all the time. They didn't. Mary lived alone now, she may have relished some company...and a strong man to escort her home safely.

I agree, it is possible that Kelly knew Blotchy. However it is also possible she did not know him. You would think if Blotchy was a friend of Kelly he would have came forward with that information and we would know his name.

My best regards all.

Your friend, Brad

[The Good Michael]

[Coroner] Why did you leave her ? - Because she had a woman of bad character there, whom she took in out of compassion, and I objected to it. That was the only reason.

Barnett's words. Nothing about going on the streets that I can see. Venturney said that Barnett didn't want Kelly to go on the streets, but Barnett didn't say it. Venturney was conjecturing, giving an opinion. Barnett was quite clear about why he left.

Mike

Hi all,

Fortunately this isn't a salesman/client situation where I must have you all agree with me so that I can earn a living.

The only man we know aside from Joe Barnett and Joe Flemming, that visited Marys room is Blotchy man, all by courtyard witness accounts. Joe Barnett objected to Marys selling herself on the streets...I don't think its wise to disregard his choice of words, and if he didn't like her selling herself outdoors, you can be pretty damn sure he wouldn't like her performing sex acts with other men in the bed he sleeps in each night either.

So until Joe moves out, by her lovers testimony, it is unlikely Mary entertained paying clients in her room. We know that Mary Ann Cox went out a few times, and we dont know if she brought anyone back in with her...and from the way she is described in the press, she needed the advantage of a warm bed and room to entice clients and compete with younger, more attractive street whores. But we cant say for sure even she brings men in.

So I would think on the weight of what we do know, versus the weight of the supposition that she would start whoring in her room, even if we don't know of any occasion where she does that...and we have reason to believe she didn't while Joe lived there, ..on balance I'm quite comfortable with my position stated.

Blotchy Man cannot be considered as a stranger seeking sex, because we have testimony that Mary was singing to the man for over an hour, off and on. I suggest the "off" times were when she ate a bit of the food they brought in. By all appearances, Blotchy Man escorted Mary home, and enjoyed her company for a bit.

And Please don't suggest that whores didn't have friendly male acquaintances....thats as accurate as saying all whores whore all the time. They didn't. Mary lived alone now, she may have relished some company...and a strong man to escort her home safely.

My best regards all.

[celee]

It was something MJK used to do,simple as that - she preferred to 'entertain' at home.
Something which obviously drove Barnett to dispair,especially while the murders were still fresh.

MJK wasnt stupid in that she had Barnett read to her,to keep her informed of the developments of the murder,so she would have been on her guard (drink permitted of course).

So i think,if it was JTR who killed her,which as we all know is still debatable,then he must have had a very trusting,possibly witty character,that put her at ease .

I typed this all out a few months ago,cant believe this is my 1st day back on here and everything has crashed and all the info has gone !!

Welcome Back halomanuk,

I feel that Jack the Ripper did kill Kelly and all I think he would have had to have is the price of admission. Granted I doubt he could have been a drooling idiot holding a long sword, but he did not have to be anything special.

Kelly probably was worst for drink when she ran into her attacker so her guard may have been down even more. However do not under estimate the strong need for money. She was a prostitute, she would have taken anyones, well almost anyones.

Actually no money may have even been exchanged. They may have agreed on a price and been on their mary to Mary's room.

Your friend, Brad

[halomanuk]

It was something MJK used to do,simple as that - she preferred to 'entertain' at home.
Something which obviously drove Barnett to dispair,especially while the murders were still fresh.

MJK wasnt stupid in that she had Barnett read to her,to keep her informed of the developments of the murder,so she would have been on her guard (drink permitted of course).

So i think,if it was JTR who killed her,which as we all know is still debatable,then he must have had a very trusting,possibly witty character,that put her at ease .

I typed this all out a few months ago,cant believe this is my 1st day back on here and everything has crashed and all the info has gone !!

[celee]

Hi,

It is Bike week here in Daytona and I may have inhaled to many fumes but I think that Good Michael makes a good point.

Mary Kelly was a prostitute and I know that it may not be wise to make sweeping statements generalizing all prostitutes. However Mary probably was not much different then the others.

We have two witnesses claiming to see Mary bringing men back to her room. I would say it was probable that Mary was working that night. She may have been entertaining for her supper or gin or rent but it is obvious she was entertaining men in her room.

Hi Ben,

How have you been? I know we agree on some aspects of this case. However we never seem to be on the right threads.

Your friend, Brad

[The Good Michael]

Michael,

I may not be accurate, but I would say I stand on firmer ground. Odd though, I used to be always the one swimming upstream in these arguments. I should be on your side.

Cheers,

Mike

There are thousands of precedents. Where there are brothels, there are rooms. Where there are rooms, there are prostitutes. Where there are prostitutes, there are clients. If Mary started her glowing career in a brothel, which testimony suggests, she was well aware that it was more comfortable and less time-consuming (i.e., trying to find a client, and walking about) using her own room. This is simple logic and not a question of recorded precedents. Wait! Mary was... different! Never mind.

Cheers,

Mike

Hi Mike,

Forgive me for being blunt, but I wouldnt say that generalizing about all Victorian prostitutes and what they did in their rooms gives you the most accurate opinion on this matter, as it relates to Mary Kelly's known habits specifically. For example, we know that Mary Ann Cox was working that Thursday evening...so were all prostitutes therefore working? In Mary Kellys case anyway, it is probable by the circumstantial evidence, she was not.

I think sweeping assumptive statements about what all whores did or didnt do completely negates that these were people before they were whores, women with their own minds and habits, and different lives. Some had children, some husbands...all of which would affect their "work" schedules. Yes many were starving. And many had no rooms to sleep in. Those are strong work motivators for them. Again, on this night, Mary was fed, drunk and in a room in her name, when her decision to go out again would be made....if she ever had any intention of working that night.

Chava, you may be right about some stories Mary told about her past, but we do have a verified account of a woman helping Mary retrieve some fine dresses left at a bordello she worked in. I think she is at the point where her opportunities to draw clients with her youth and looks is starting to wane, likely from her hard life including boozing. Not that surprising that we see her where she is after that "more glamorous" whores life. Without a benefactor, the next step for her would have been the streets.

My best regards.

[Chava]

Yes, except the only testimony we had that Kelly was in a West End house is her own, and I do think she was inclined to embroider. I don't see any a priori reason why she should fall as far as East End streetwalking apart from the fact that she drank--and that by itself isn't enough to take her down so dramatically. I think that story was just to up her market value a little.

[The Good Michael]

I just think that to just assume Mary took clients in, it should be at least be based on one precedent setting occasion....and there are no such accounts on record.

There are thousands of precedents. Where there are brothels, there are rooms. Where there are rooms, there are prostitutes. Where there are prostitutes, there are clients. If Mary started her glowing career in a brothel, which testimony suggests, she was well aware that it was more comfortable and less time-consuming (i.e., trying to find a client, and walking about) using her own room. This is simple logic and not a question of recorded precedents. Wait! Mary was... different! Never mind.

Cheers,

Mike

Hey cd,

For the sake of this threads premise, yeah, Im suggesting there is evidence to sustain speculation that she may have known the man that kills her if she did not leave after arriving home before midnight.

Beyond that, I do think the field could be narrowed even further, using some of the circumstantial aspects. As you know, I believe that Liz Stride is simply what she appears to be, the victim of a drunk thug, seen assaulting her minutes before she dies, feet from the location. In Marys case, I think if you can look beyond the ghastly mutilations for a moment as being something only Jack the Ripper could do, but requiring madness nonetheless, and consider that her killer may have known her by the fact he comes to her room himself...possibly... then we have a man who will be committed for insanity involved in what appears to be a love triangle with Mary Kelly at the time of her death. Someone who resides like George Hutchinson, at The Victoria Home for Working Men.

Ive always said that he (her killer) may have been the Ripper, but he was close to Mary Kelly personally first. I dont happen to believe he was Jack, but he makes a good case for possibly being Marys killer anyway, depending on the status of their relationship at the moment of her death. There may have been a motive other than just carnage, and it may have involved emotional issues with the killer not shown in prior victims...erasing the face and taking the heart this time for example.

Was she returning to "him" since Barnett left, or spurning his advances, even when Other Joe knows she lives alone now.....stayed tuned to this channel for all the updates on the hour, as we follow this breaking story....

Cheers Bud.

[c.d.]

Hi Michael,

Since you are so adamant that Mary did not go out soliciting, let's assume for the sake of argument that she did not. Now what conclusion are you drawing from this? Is it that she knew her killer and let him in? If so,that brings us back to the question in what way did she know him? Since that can run the gamut from lover to met earlier in the day, I don't see where that gets us anywhere. But maybe you are drawing a different conclusion.

c.d.

Michael,

Millers' Court was not a gated community nor were any of the residents under that delusion, so that there is no specific complaint against Kelly or anyone else bringing in transients is hardly surprising. As it is, there are contemporary newspaper interviews in which residents and neighbors did say that strange men were in and out of the court most nights. It was a "live and let live" sort of society.

Don.

Hi Don,

I'm quite sure that there was indeed men traffic in and out of Millers Court, as we know of at least 4 single women who lived there...1 albeit upstairs in 26 Dorset. But Im also fairly certain that aside from Joe Barnett, Joe Flemming and Blotchy Face, none were ever said to be attending Mary or Marys room specifically.

I just think that to just assume Mary took clients in, it should be at least be based on one precedent setting occasion....and there are no such accounts on record.

However we do have on record that her live in lover resented her whoring herself on the streets. One would imagine that would have impacted her also doing so in the same room and bed that he slept in. For 10 months until November 1st that was the story of # 13.

Where is it indicated that had changed by November 8th?

My best regards as always Don.