Did Mary know her attacker?

[perrymason]

Hi Suz,

Interesting you mentioned Kate's mysterious "immaculate inebriation" too...in that it was a state arrived at without any funds..but I do think Kate, although clever and probably my favourite among the Canonicals, worked only when the need was dire....and that could be a need for a bed, that she and Kelly had shared for some time, or for booze and food.

Which means I suspect if she was stone drunk by 8pm, she had probably been doing more drinking than working any clients, and her drinks were likely bought for her...just like Mary's apparently were, the night she dies.

You're right Suzi, interesting that victims number 4 and 5 seemed to be drunk their last nights respectively, without having any money,.. and also that victim number 4 uses 2 variations of victim number 5's name as her aliases, in her last 24 hours.

I think if we could find out where Kate was, and what she was doing from the time she last sees Kelly....which despite his statements I believe was Friday night,...until her arrest for fire engine impersonating..., my bet is that we would be a lot closer to understanding why she turns left out of Bishopsgate, and why she is killed less than 40 minutes after her release.

I believe in Mary Kellys case, that we could make similar inroads if we knew if she definitely stayed in that night...and what time Blotchy left.

Of course implying that there may be motives for these killings that are based on things we dont have the luxury of knowing for certain. Like, for example and only in a fictitious scenario....lets say Kate got money from some bloke because she really did say to her ex-landlord she was turning the Ripper in for the reward, and someone spotted her some dosh on that story....only the wrong ears got wind of her story that she tells to get the advance....and decides to eliminate her as soon as her can get her alone, or passes the news on to someone who could make trouble for her if he thought she was a rat. Overly Dramatic of course, and fiction....but Im sure you see my point.

If Mary stays in, then its a 50-50 shot her killer is known to her.

Neither of those to me seem like very non-descript women, struggling along with their aches and pains and having to work hours to get enough for just a bed. The first victims did...and Ill add Martha to that list. Pardon me for saying so, but basically unattractive, middle aged prostitutes, who needed to be outdoors even if there was a killer loose killing whores, cause they had nowhere or no-one to go to anymore. It was work outdoors and risk Jack, or sleep outdoors and die of exposure.

Very grim.

But Kate goes Hopping every year...sounds optimistic doesn't it, heading off with hope for a windfall this year...which of course it wasn't that year. And she can knit.....Mary can sew, and Ill bet she helped Maria wash the laundry that afternoon. Kate looked years younger than her age, Mary was years younger. They seemed hopeful....like they didnt have to die alone as street whores.

They seem to be the two to root for I think, like the only ones out of the bunch that could have actually been happy, with a few breaks their way, and AA.

My best Suz.

[paul emmett]

If Mary stays in, then its a 50-50 shot her killer is known to her.

Hi, Michael.

Do you just say this to appease your critics? Doesn't it have to be more like 96-4? IF!

I do agree about Eddowes: 2 versions of MJK's name, and a Dorsett st. address, pawn ticket date problems, the she was meeting someone theory, and the old "I think I know who he is"--all could lead us to an understanding of her left turn.

[Chava]

But wasn't Polly Nicholls drunk as well that night?

About half-past two on Friday morning witness saw deceased walking down Osborne-street, Whitechapel-road. She was alone, and very much the worse for drink.

Only Chapman seems to have been sober--or at least not documentably drunk. But she was known to drink to excess as well. Chapman stayed cosily by the doss-house fire until she had to leave to 'get some money'. We know she occasionally hooked as well as selling bits and bobs, but I can't help wondering why she waited so long to go out on the street that night. If I was a JtR conspiracy theorist I'd be suggesting here that at least two of these women felt confident in getting their lodging house money late at night and so might be off to do a spot of blackmail. But sadly, although that makes a great crime novel, I don't think that's the case here!

But I think I've been spending too much time with Kelly and I don't think she can tell me much. I'm off back to the beginning. I believe profilers think it's the first kill that tells you the most, and I'm beginning to suspect something I never believed before. Viz that Tabram was the start of the series...

[perrymason]

The answer is yes Paul, solely to appease. I didn't mean to divert attention from discussing Mary though, just responding to Suzi's comments.

Your right to point out that Mary Ann was also drunk Chava, I hadn't meant to summarize how many were bombed though, just to point out that in the case of Catherine and Mary Kelly, they were bombed quite early comparatively, and when neither had any money to get them in that state, and when we do not know that they had worked to earn any money. Polly was working that night.

Best regards.

[paul emmett]

Stride had no alcohol in her system, right?

[perrymason]

Stride had no alcohol in her system, right?

Hi Paul,

To my recollection no, but Im checking the inquest data just as a reminder...

He, Phillips, does say this..."There was no perceptible trace of any anaesthetic or narcotic"....ah, here it is, the direct quote..." A Juror:" Was there any trace of malt liquor in the stomach?" - Phillips: "There was no trace."

Again, Im not trying to make alcohol a relevant factor in the victims or the killler's selection criteria, just pointing out that at least two victims, were stone drunk before midnight, and neither had the visible funds to be that way...nor is there any evidence available that says they worked their last nights respectively. We know for sure Kate didnt from 8:30 until 1am anyway.

Cheers Paul.

[Chava]

Actually I just checked. Chapman was boozed-up as well but not totally pie-eyed. Stride is the only one who may have been sober or near to sober on the night she died. Although she was known to drink, and she did have 6d that she'd earned cleaning that day so could have afforded a couple of drinks.

[perrymason]

Actually I just checked. Chapman was boozed-up as well but not totally pie-eyed. Stride is the only one who may have been sober or near to sober on the night she died. Although she was known to drink, and she did have 6d that she'd earned cleaning that day so could have afforded a couple of drinks.

Or she could have paid for her bed with 4 of the 6d she earned that day before going out...leaving her free to drink any money earned away. Yet she dies sober, dressed in her evening wear, without having secured a bed for herself, despite having the funds to do so. And she does have an unexplained flower on her breast later that night...did she buy it for herself?

Almost like she had other plans for her sleeping arrangements that night..or was open to suggestions.

My best regards.

[Sam Flynn]

But... did Mary know her attacker?

I saw fewer tangents in all the years I studied geometry at school.

[perrymason]

Sam, you know how easy it is to try and find support for a point thread related somewhere other than on the straight and narrow path...

Point taken though. Heres the next comment to get tomatoes thrown at me for.....

Is Marys position at the commencement of her attack indicative of a sleeping position, one that would allow for another to be on the bed to her left? She is supposedly first attacked while on the right side of the bed, near the partition wall. I ask this because it would be odd to sleep with her back turned to a stranger or client, if that is what she was doing. And the only reason I can think of her being with company, and on the right upper side of the bed, is because she was sharing that space.

Im trying hard to stay out of trouble here..in case you couldn't tell.

Best regards Sam, all.

[Sam Flynn]

I ask this because it would be odd to sleep with her back turned to a stranger or client, if that is what she was doing.

Was she supposed to sleep on top of him? Well, perhaps for an additional fee...

Seriously, her orientation on the bed can't have any relevance in terms of whether she knew her attacker or not.

[perrymason]

Was she supposed to sleep on top of him? Well, perhaps for an additional fee...

Seriously, her orientation on the bed can't have any relevance in terms of whether she knew her attacker or not.

You are intent on fighting me on every inch of this murder scene aren't you...and so you should be, its a very important one out of the C5 I think, in that it is one of two that may have very reasonable explanations, rather than being just a JTR random killing.

If Mary Kelly is on right hand side of the bed, facing the wall, when she is attacked...which is possible by medical opinion, then it might indicate that she was sleeping with someone, them being on the left hand side of the bed.

Sam...Gareth...my friend......First you want me to believe Mary goes out after midnight...without offering any accredited witness testimony or any evidence...then you want me to believe Mary brings men in to her room now that Barnett has left...again, without any evidence to support that statement,... and now you want me to accept that a sleepover would be the usual treatment for someone she didnt know well?

I think Sam you doth protesteth too much.

My best as always Sam.

[The Good Michael]

If Mary Kelly is on right hand side of the bed, facing the wall, when she is attacked...which is possible by medical opinion, then it might indicate that she was sleeping with someone, them being on the left hand side of the bed.

So the theory then is this: The murderer knew her very well else she wouldn't be inviting him back to the room. He had one last schtupp, and then cut her throat and mutilated her. The whole time, she was oblivious to any hostility the man might have had, no doubt because she trusted and loved him and was intoxicated (take your pick). Why not add that he spoke in a very high register and it was he who was singing 'Violet from Mother's Grave' even as he was stoking the fire with laundry that Kelly had just washed (because she wasn't really a whore, but a laundress), and it was he that was seen wearing Kelly's clothes later on that morning because he couldn't bear that he had killed her, and was determined to have her live on, through him?

I'll bite.

Mike

[NOV9]

So the theory then is this: The murderer knew her very well else she wouldn't be inviting him back to the room. He had one last schtupp, and then cut her throat and mutilated her. The whole time, she was oblivious to any hostility the man might have had, no doubt because she trusted and loved him and was intoxicated (take your pick). Why not add that he spoke in a very high register and it was he who was singing 'Violet from Mother's Grave' even as he was stoking the fire with laundry that Kelly had just washed (because she wasn't really a whore, but a laundress), and it was he that was seen wearing Kelly's clothes later on that morning because he couldn't bear that he had killed her, and was determined to have her live on, through him?

I'll bite.

Mike

You said “The whole time, she was oblivious to any hostility the man might have had, no doubt because she trusted and loved him”

And he in his sick mind also loved her, which is why he killed Eddowes instead of her, this sort of thing does happen.

You said, “Why not add that he spoke in a very high register and it was he who was singing”

He may not have spoke in a very high register, but he could have been singing in a very high register.
I was not uncommon for men to sing like that, I know it sounds funny, but believe me it is true.

Now the rest of your sentence is weird.

[Sam Flynn]

I think Sam you doth protesteth too much.

Mike - I'm not. I'm simply pointing out that the position in which Mary was found on the bed can't possibly provide any indication of whether she knew her attacker or not. If you dispute that, then it ain't me who is protesting too much, I can assure you