Did Mary know her attacker?

[halomanuk]

It was something MJK used to do,simple as that - she preferred to 'entertain' at home.
Something which obviously drove Barnett to dispair,especially while the murders were still fresh.

MJK wasnt stupid in that she had Barnett read to her,to keep her informed of the developments of the murder,so she would have been on her guard (drink permitted of course).

So i think,if it was JTR who killed her,which as we all know is still debatable,then he must have had a very trusting,possibly witty character,that put her at ease .

I typed this all out a few months ago,cant believe this is my 1st day back on here and everything has crashed and all the info has gone !!

[celee]

It was something MJK used to do,simple as that - she preferred to 'entertain' at home.
Something which obviously drove Barnett to dispair,especially while the murders were still fresh.

MJK wasnt stupid in that she had Barnett read to her,to keep her informed of the developments of the murder,so she would have been on her guard (drink permitted of course).

So i think,if it was JTR who killed her,which as we all know is still debatable,then he must have had a very trusting,possibly witty character,that put her at ease .

I typed this all out a few months ago,cant believe this is my 1st day back on here and everything has crashed and all the info has gone !!

Welcome Back halomanuk,

I feel that Jack the Ripper did kill Kelly and all I think he would have had to have is the price of admission. Granted I doubt he could have been a drooling idiot holding a long sword, but he did not have to be anything special.

Kelly probably was worst for drink when she ran into her attacker so her guard may have been down even more. However do not under estimate the strong need for money. She was a prostitute, she would have taken anyones, well almost anyones.

Actually no money may have even been exchanged. They may have agreed on a price and been on their mary to Mary's room.

Your friend, Brad

[perrymason]

Hi all,

Fortunately this isn't a salesman/client situation where I must have you all agree with me so that I can earn a living.

The only man we know aside from Joe Barnett and Joe Flemming, that visited Marys room is Blotchy man, all by courtyard witness accounts. Joe Barnett objected to Marys selling herself on the streets...I don't think its wise to disregard his choice of words, and if he didn't like her selling herself outdoors, you can be pretty damn sure he wouldn't like her performing sex acts with other men in the bed he sleeps in each night either.

So until Joe moves out, by her lovers testimony, it is unlikely Mary entertained paying clients in her room. We know that Mary Ann Cox went out a few times, and we dont know if she brought anyone back in with her...and from the way she is described in the press, she needed the advantage of a warm bed and room to entice clients and compete with younger, more attractive street whores. But we cant say for sure even she brings men in.

So I would think on the weight of what we do know, versus the weight of the supposition that she would start whoring in her room, even if we don't know of any occasion where she does that...and we have reason to believe she didn't while Joe lived there, ..on balance I'm quite comfortable with my position stated.

Blotchy Man cannot be considered as a stranger seeking sex, because we have testimony that Mary was singing to the man for over an hour, off and on. I suggest the "off" times were when she ate a bit of the food they brought in. By all appearances, Blotchy Man escorted Mary home, and enjoyed her company for a bit.

And Please don't suggest that whores didn't have friendly male acquaintances....thats as accurate as saying all whores whore all the time. They didn't. Mary lived alone now, she may have relished some company...and a strong man to escort her home safely.

My best regards all.

[The Good Michael]

[Coroner] Why did you leave her ? - Because she had a woman of bad character there, whom she took in out of compassion, and I objected to it. That was the only reason.

Barnett's words. Nothing about going on the streets that I can see. Venturney said that Barnett didn't want Kelly to go on the streets, but Barnett didn't say it. Venturney was conjecturing, giving an opinion. Barnett was quite clear about why he left.

Mike

[celee]

Hi all,

Fortunately this isn't a salesman/client situation where I must have you all agree with me so that I can earn a living.

The only man we know aside from Joe Barnett and Joe Flemming, that visited Marys room is Blotchy man, all by courtyard witness accounts. Joe Barnett objected to Marys selling herself on the streets...I don't think its wise to disregard his choice of words, and if he didn't like her selling herself outdoors, you can be pretty damn sure he wouldn't like her performing sex acts with other men in the bed he sleeps in each night either.

I do not dismiss Hutchinson's story.

So until Joe moves out, by her lovers testimony, it is unlikely Mary entertained paying clients in her room. We know that Mary Ann Cox went out a few times, and we dont know if she brought anyone back in with her...and from the way she is described in the press, she needed the advantage of a warm bed and room to entice clients and compete with younger, more attractive street whores. But we cant say for sure even she brings men in.

I agree it is unlikely that Kelly entertained clients out of her room while Barnett was stlill around.

So I would think on the weight of what we do know, versus the weight of the supposition that she would start whoring in her room, even if we don't know of any occasion where she does that...and we have reason to believe she didn't while Joe lived there, ..on balance I'm quite comfortable with my position stated.

Why not start entertaining clients in her home, Barnetts gone. It was a lot safer then entertaining on the streets. No chance of getting caught in her home.

Blotchy Man cannot be considered as a stranger seeking sex, because we have testimony that Mary was singing to the man for over an hour, off and on. I suggest the "off" times were when she ate a bit of the food they brought in. By all appearances, Blotchy Man escorted Mary home, and enjoyed her company for a bit.

Blotchy could have been a stranger and he could have been seeking sex. Men and women meet all the time in bars or were ever and go home with eachother. It happends everynight in Daytona. The bear and Dinner could have been the price of the party.

And Please don't suggest that whores didn't have friendly male acquaintances....thats as accurate as saying all whores whore all the time. They didn't. Mary lived alone now, she may have relished some company...and a strong man to escort her home safely.

I agree, it is possible that Kelly knew Blotchy. However it is also possible she did not know him. You would think if Blotchy was a friend of Kelly he would have came forward with that information and we would know his name.

My best regards all.

Your friend, Brad

[perrymason]

Hi again,

Mike, you're correct, I cant seem to find a version that has Barnett saying it specifically, but Julia did say "he would not let her go out on the streets", and when added with Barnett's objection to having a woman who whores herself out, ...in the same line of work as Mary,... staying with them, it would seem unlikely that she brought men in, or was even allowed to go out working very often. In other words, I don't think Barnett's objection to her "work" is unclear.

Brad,

On Hutchinson, believing his account of Mary Kelly on the early morning of November 8th is your perogative, but since the police dismissed it as being relevant, anything you conclude based on the statement Hutch makes Monday night about a man with Mary, or seeing Mary outdoors, will be laid on very suspect foundations. You say Why not start entertaining in her room?..Well, for one thing, until Mary Kellys death it was believed the killer struck only on the streets, and only whores who were apparently actively soliciting clients at the time.

If a woman is afraid of the streets because a killer kills "street" women out there, and she doesn't seem to like her line of work anyway, as expressed to a friend, then how is her room anything but the absolute safest and most desirable place to be? And why would she ever bring a stranger from the streets to her own room, during a killing spree of whores at work, that she was in fear of.

On the case of Blotchy man, the only conclusion one can make about his presence there that night is as an invited guest of Mary's, one that she entertained with song. To put two and two together and figure he also may have paid for her drinks and food isn't a real stretch either.

Best regards.

[celee]

Hi again,

Mike, you're correct, I cant seem to find a version that has Barnett saying it specifically, but Julia did say "he would not let her go out on the streets", and when added with Barnett's objection to having a woman who whores herself out, ...in the same line of work as Mary,... staying with them, it would seem unlikely that she brought men in, or was even allowed to go out working very often. In other words, I don't think Barnett's objection to her "work" is unclear.

Brad,

On Hutchinson, believing his account of Mary Kelly on the early morning of November 8th is your perogative, but since the police dismissed it as being relevant, anything you conclude based on the statement Hutch makes Monday night about a man with Mary, or seeing Mary outdoors, will be laid on very suspect foundations. You say Why not start entertaining in her room?..Well, for one thing, until Mary Kellys death it was believed the killer struck only on the streets, and only whores who were apparently actively soliciting clients at the time.

The police may have dismissed the man Hutchinson saw Kelly with as the ripper but Abberline did believe his story after interviewing him. It does apear that later Abberline would dismiss the description that Hutchinson gave but for what reason, we do not know.

If a woman is afraid of the streets because a killer kills "street" women out there, and she doesn't seem to like her line of work anyway, as expressed to a friend, then how is her room anything but the absolute safest and most desirable place to be? And why would she ever bring a stranger from the streets to her own room, during a killing spree of whores at work, that she was in fear of.

Most every prostitute regrets their line of work but they keep on doing the job.

She may have been afraid of the ripper. However most prostitutes were afraid of the Ripper and they still kept on working. I believe that Abberline and Macnaughten both described their frustration on that part.

Kelly needed money. She picks up the Ripper it is that simple. She was desperate enough to take the chance. If she is prostituting he could have killed her out doors as well. It makes no difference if she is working outside or indoors she is dead.


Best regards.

Your friend, Brad

[perrymason]

Hey Brad,

In the case of the desperately poor prostitutes, which was most of the Canonicals, life was hand to mouth on a daily basis. There was no "salt a bit away for a rainy day" money, or plan for future bills or to pay down past ones money, there was maybe enough after a few clients to get a bed or some food, and some just drank it away as soon as it came in.

Each day's goal was to survive that day. Once again...since its seems this point is taking a while to settle in....on the night Mary is killed, none of the motivating factors for whores to work the streets diligently are present. She is also sloshed when she gets home before midnight, and it is raining hard, when her lights are out and her room is quiet. And McCarthy himself said on the stand, "arrears were got as best one can".

Mary had no obvious need, or any precedent showing us she works when she doesn't have to,...ongoing arrears ring a bell?... to go out in the rain that night.

My best regards.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mike,

we do have on record that her live in lover resented her whoring herself on the streets.

...or, at least, that he said so. The fact that Barnett allegedly felt that way suggests that he had more than hypothetical reasons for his resentment.

[c.d.]

Hey Brad,

In the case of the desperately poor prostitutes, which was most of the Canonicals, life was hand to mouth on a daily basis. There was no "salt a bit away for a rainy day" money, or plan for future bills or to pay down past ones money, there was maybe enough after a few clients to get a bed or some food, and some just drank it away as soon as it came in.

Each day's goal was to survive that day. Once again...since its seems this point is taking a while to settle in....on the night Mary is killed, none of the motivating factors for whores to work the streets diligently are present. She is also sloshed when she gets home before midnight, and it is raining hard, when her lights are out and her room is quiet. And McCarthy himself said on the stand, "arrears were got as best one can".

Mary had no obvious need, or any precedent showing us she works when she doesn't have to,...ongoing arrears ring a bell?... to go out in the rain that night.

My best regards.

Hi Michael,

You seem to be making contradictory statements here -- you are saying that life was hand to mouth on a daily basis for someone like Mary yet you are saying that she had no need to go out because her needs were met for that day[/B]. But there is still the problem of her rent and now she is without the money that Barnett used to provide. Also she would be depriving herself of a weekend night which was probably the best time to make money. You seem to want to ignore these realities.

c.d.

[celee]

Hey Brad,

In the case of the desperately poor prostitutes, which was most of the Canonicals, life was hand to mouth on a daily basis. There was no "salt a bit away for a rainy day" money, or plan for future bills or to pay down past ones money, there was maybe enough after a few clients to get a bed or some food, and some just drank it away as soon as it came in.

Each day's goal was to survive that day. Once again...since its seems this point is taking a while to settle in....on the night Mary is killed, none of the motivating factors for whores to work the streets diligently are present. She is also sloshed when she gets home before midnight, and it is raining hard, when her lights are out and her room is quiet. And McCarthy himself said on the stand, "arrears were got as best one can".

Mary had no obvious need, or any precedent showing us she works when she doesn't have to,...ongoing arrears ring a bell?... to go out in the rain that night.

My best regards.

Hi Perry,

I would think that more presure was put on residents to collect over due rent then, hey if you got you got it, if you dont you dont, it does not matter. What matters is what Kelly thought was pressing. Maybe the next drink, maybe eating or maybe she just wanted money. I never claimed Kelly needed an urgent reason to go out. I imagine any would do.

I have read that Kelly was scared of the Ripper and talked about it that night, not sure if it is true, However the only reason she would have to be frightend of the Ripper is if she was going to entertain.

I am unclear about Kelly's working status. I am with you I do not believe she worked all that hard at prostituting herself while Barnett was with her. However others claim she did.

Kelly was a flawed women. We can not assume that she would act a certain way. Just because you might need an urgent reason to go out in the rain does not mean she did. Some people when they drink all bets are off. The urge to drink is strong.

Is more probable that Kelly was a prostitute that worked out of her home and met her fate or she was an inocent victim who just by hapenstance met her fate.

Your friend, Brad

[Sam Flynn]

Mary had no obvious need, or any precedent showing us she works when she doesn't have to go out in the rain that night.

We have the precedents set by Mrs Cox and Prater. Why should Kelly have behaved any differently to them, or any other streetwalker?

[Limehouse]

I think it is reasonable to explore whether any of the victims had some familiarity with the killer. Some have suggested that, after the first couple of murders, women would have been less likely to go down a dark alley with a stranger - thus lending weight to the idea that they knew the killer.

However, it should be remembered that several of the women were said to be at least slightly intoxicated on the nights they were attacked and this may have made them less cautious.

The killer could have been a man who had recently started to 'hang around' the places the women frequented. He may sometimes have offered them a drink and engaged them in a short conversation, before shrinking back into the crowd. He may have been only just familiar enough to be reassuring, they may have 'trusted' him due to his appearance or his mode of speech. I am not saying that he stalked them - just walked among them for a while. His vicitms may still have been picked at random - he knew where to look to come up trumps, but his slight familiarity may have made them too trusting.

If Mary knew her killer and was therefore prepared to riosk taking himn back to her room, I think this scenario is the most likely.

I believe that some prostitutes in Ipswich were slightly familiar with Wright in this way. May be that was what made them willing to get into his car after several of them had already been murdered.

[Suzi]

Hey Brad,

In the case of the desperately poor prostitutes, which was most of the Canonicals, life was hand to mouth on a daily basis. There was no "salt a bit away for a rainy day" money, or plan for future bills or to pay down past ones money, there was maybe enough after a few clients to get a bed or some food, and some just drank it away as soon as it came in.

Each day's goal was to survive that day. Once again...since its seems this point is taking a while to settle in....on the night Mary is killed, none of the motivating factors for whores to work the streets diligently are present. She is also sloshed when she gets home before midnight, and it is raining hard, when her lights are out and her room is quiet. And McCarthy himself said on the stand, "arrears were got as best one can".

Mary had no obvious need, or any precedent showing us she works when she doesn't have to,...ongoing arrears ring a bell?... to go out in the rain that night.

My best regards.

Hi Mike
I'm sure that Annie and Pol were most certainly 'hand to mouth' Liz I cannot be sure of, nor Kate either.Now Mary had a roof (albeit 13,Millers Ct) over her head. The fact that Mary was at 'the singing stage' at that time of night cannot be considered unusual- nor can Kate with her mysterious 'afternoon out'
- WHY both of these two were in 'this state' is a total mystery...........crack these and we've got it.........well especially with Kate!
Suzi x

[paul emmett]

The fact that Mary was at 'the singing stage' at that time of night cannot be considered unusual- nor can Kate with her mysterious 'afternoon out'
- WHY both of these two were in 'this state' is a total mystery...........crack these and we've got it.........well especially with Kate!
Suzi x

Hello, all.

I don't know, Suzi. I think with Kelly we need to crack why she was singing. Clearly there is a controversy on this thread over whether Blotchy is a trick or not. Some say he has to be just a friend because MJK does nothing but sing to him. And while that seems logical, upon reflection, I find it suspect too. No amount of alcohol--let alone a quart of beer--is going to make me listen to any of my friends sing about death, mother and violets for over 75 minutes. Is Kelly stalling? Does Blotch have unique proclivities? What??