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Hello all,
Don, are you saying that Maria, by spending the entire afternoon with Mary in her room, and bringing with her take-in laundry... that is found folded in the room, belonging to neither Maria or Mary, along with Mary receiving some coins from Maria, is not evidence that suggests Mary helped Maria with her laundry?
Paul, Mary was a prostitute, I brought up the laundry to show an example of how Liz Stride, and perhaps Mary Kelly, earned money for cleaning their last day....as we cannot be sure either was "working" the streets that same night. Anyone who says they did nothing but whore is being naive, and harsh.
Tron, thats why I said approximate. As far as evidence that suggests Mary Kelly was killed by someone she knew, perhaps you have another explanation for the killer coming into the court and her room by herself....and Ive already acknowledged it could have been accidental luck too.
Chava, if you look at pictures of courts like Millers Court from that era, you will see wash lines strung across the open area. The clothes were folded, meaning already washed, so the line may have been taken in when they were air dried. As far as Mary hooking that night, perhaps you like some others here have some secret evidence that Mary left her room after midnight, because as a matter of record, that has not been proven by anyone. In fact on record, it appears that she did not. If you choose to validate Hutchinsons sighting, or Maxwell or anyone else that is contrary to all other accepted evidence that night, thats your choice.
Sox, the only thing I can see with you is that you like being a pain in the a** with me. I said the accepted evidence of the night regarding Mary and her room, suggests that Mary did not go out that night, as we have no credible witness to suggest otherwise....which is 100% accurate.
Your points..."She was killed in her own room, half undressed, because she was a prostitute, and Victorian prostitutes undressed to their chemise before sex."
Really? Even prostitutes who dont use a room and solicit their clients on the street, as Barnett said Mary did? But you know differently... right. There is not one shred of evidence that Mary ever brought a client to her room...NOT ONE. Unless you and others believe her clients paid for singing.
"Kelly was almost certainly a different kind of prostitute than the others, do some research for yourself and see"
There are many here who have studied the crimes far more closely than I have, you're not one of them. Or as the church across from my apartment says on its message board...The two truths, There is a god, and you're not him.
"She died in her room because that is where she worked."
Since we know that the opposite is likely true, that she never entertained clients in her room, well done on that point. Not one drop of proof to support your claim.
"I have read every single part of the official files over and over again Michael, and at no point do police seriously consider that Kellys killer was a personal aquaintance or lover. There is not one single scrap of hard evidence that any of the victims knew their killer. What we do have is over a hundred years of supposition and opinion, that is NOT evidence."
You would think then that you would know Mary Kelly is one of around 11 alleged street prostitutes killed between 1888 and 1889, not a forensically determined Ripper victim, and she is the only one killed in her own bed.
To correct you on another point, there is indeed evidence that suggests Mary Kelly did not leave her room, and so Mary knowing her attacker is one of two answers as to how he found the room, gained access, and if Mary was then awake, why he was allowed to stay. For the last time....and I suggest you open you ears and eyes so you read it properly....there is no credible evidence on record that denies Mary stayed in. And if so, her killer either came to her room, or found her room available to him by chance. Either is possible.
I am losing my patience having to counter insults instead of actual counter-points, so for the sake future argumentative spew, perhaps it would be better if you all who crap on my posts can answer the following;
1. What proof is there that Mary Kelly left her room after 11:45pm? Again...please dont use discredited statements in your answer.
2. What proof is there that Mary Kelly ever brought a client to her room?
3. What other street prostitute is killed in her own room? Using all of 1888 and 1889 stats.
4. What evidence is there that Mary did not let her killer enter from the inside of her room?
5. What evidence is there that the killer did not know the window/latch method?
6. What evidence is there to state for certain only 1 man was involved in her death? Remember Jacks a lone wolf apparently.
7. What evidence exists that demonstrates only Jack the Ripper could cut women open? We have other killings that mirror Ripper style, but weren't attributed to him.
8. What evidence is there that Mary was soliciting at the time of her death, or when she meets her killer?
9. What evidence is there to suggest that Mary would go to work in the streets when it is raining, and she is already fed, drunk, and at home? Use her work ethic as gathered from friends testimony, and her "responsible" behavior on her rent arrears as a guideline.
10. What evidence is there that confirms Mary could not, and did not know her killer prior to her death? Is it the struggle that didnt she put up until attacked with the knife, is it the screams for help that she doesnt make when she finds someone at her door or in her room, or is it the way he forces himself in on her quietly?
In this instance, I could care less who agrees with me, as I quite obviously have the data foundation present to make the statements that seem controversial. I have no problem discussing valid points with anyone, but Ill be damned if Ill let insults take the place of sound rebuttal.
If I hear another "Mary went our whoring cause whores go out whoring and she was a whore"....or, "theres no evidence to suggest she may have known her killer"...despite the obvious fact someone very likely came to her room by themselves to kill her, that she dies in her own bed, undressed, and so she was very likely not acquired in "The Ripper" style...while they are actively soliciting, or at the very least, dressed and outdoors after midnight.
Ill leave the thread to you folks, as you obviously have a much greater grasp of the pertinent facts, and what logical reasoning is, than I do.
Its probably very freeing to be able to say Mary went whoring after midnight, without providing any accepted evidence to support that conjecture...that Mary brought clients to her room, despite that evidence on file that suggests she never had done that prior to Nov 1st, and Mary didnt know her attacker, without any proof that was the case.
Believe what you want, Im tired of pointing out the obvious and then having to explain it.
Regards.
Don, are you saying that Maria, by spending the entire afternoon with Mary in her room, and bringing with her take-in laundry... that is found folded in the room, belonging to neither Maria or Mary, along with Mary receiving some coins from Maria, is not evidence that suggests Mary helped Maria with her laundry?
Paul, Mary was a prostitute, I brought up the laundry to show an example of how Liz Stride, and perhaps Mary Kelly, earned money for cleaning their last day....as we cannot be sure either was "working" the streets that same night. Anyone who says they did nothing but whore is being naive, and harsh.
Tron, thats why I said approximate. As far as evidence that suggests Mary Kelly was killed by someone she knew, perhaps you have another explanation for the killer coming into the court and her room by herself....and Ive already acknowledged it could have been accidental luck too.
Chava, if you look at pictures of courts like Millers Court from that era, you will see wash lines strung across the open area. The clothes were folded, meaning already washed, so the line may have been taken in when they were air dried. As far as Mary hooking that night, perhaps you like some others here have some secret evidence that Mary left her room after midnight, because as a matter of record, that has not been proven by anyone. In fact on record, it appears that she did not. If you choose to validate Hutchinsons sighting, or Maxwell or anyone else that is contrary to all other accepted evidence that night, thats your choice.
Sox, the only thing I can see with you is that you like being a pain in the a** with me. I said the accepted evidence of the night regarding Mary and her room, suggests that Mary did not go out that night, as we have no credible witness to suggest otherwise....which is 100% accurate.
Your points..."She was killed in her own room, half undressed, because she was a prostitute, and Victorian prostitutes undressed to their chemise before sex."
Really? Even prostitutes who dont use a room and solicit their clients on the street, as Barnett said Mary did? But you know differently... right. There is not one shred of evidence that Mary ever brought a client to her room...NOT ONE. Unless you and others believe her clients paid for singing.
"Kelly was almost certainly a different kind of prostitute than the others, do some research for yourself and see"
There are many here who have studied the crimes far more closely than I have, you're not one of them. Or as the church across from my apartment says on its message board...The two truths, There is a god, and you're not him.
"She died in her room because that is where she worked."
Since we know that the opposite is likely true, that she never entertained clients in her room, well done on that point. Not one drop of proof to support your claim.
"I have read every single part of the official files over and over again Michael, and at no point do police seriously consider that Kellys killer was a personal aquaintance or lover. There is not one single scrap of hard evidence that any of the victims knew their killer. What we do have is over a hundred years of supposition and opinion, that is NOT evidence."
You would think then that you would know Mary Kelly is one of around 11 alleged street prostitutes killed between 1888 and 1889, not a forensically determined Ripper victim, and she is the only one killed in her own bed.
To correct you on another point, there is indeed evidence that suggests Mary Kelly did not leave her room, and so Mary knowing her attacker is one of two answers as to how he found the room, gained access, and if Mary was then awake, why he was allowed to stay. For the last time....and I suggest you open you ears and eyes so you read it properly....there is no credible evidence on record that denies Mary stayed in. And if so, her killer either came to her room, or found her room available to him by chance. Either is possible.
I am losing my patience having to counter insults instead of actual counter-points, so for the sake future argumentative spew, perhaps it would be better if you all who crap on my posts can answer the following;
1. What proof is there that Mary Kelly left her room after 11:45pm? Again...please dont use discredited statements in your answer.
2. What proof is there that Mary Kelly ever brought a client to her room?
3. What other street prostitute is killed in her own room? Using all of 1888 and 1889 stats.
4. What evidence is there that Mary did not let her killer enter from the inside of her room?
5. What evidence is there that the killer did not know the window/latch method?
6. What evidence is there to state for certain only 1 man was involved in her death? Remember Jacks a lone wolf apparently.
7. What evidence exists that demonstrates only Jack the Ripper could cut women open? We have other killings that mirror Ripper style, but weren't attributed to him.
8. What evidence is there that Mary was soliciting at the time of her death, or when she meets her killer?
9. What evidence is there to suggest that Mary would go to work in the streets when it is raining, and she is already fed, drunk, and at home? Use her work ethic as gathered from friends testimony, and her "responsible" behavior on her rent arrears as a guideline.
10. What evidence is there that confirms Mary could not, and did not know her killer prior to her death? Is it the struggle that didnt she put up until attacked with the knife, is it the screams for help that she doesnt make when she finds someone at her door or in her room, or is it the way he forces himself in on her quietly?
In this instance, I could care less who agrees with me, as I quite obviously have the data foundation present to make the statements that seem controversial. I have no problem discussing valid points with anyone, but Ill be damned if Ill let insults take the place of sound rebuttal.
If I hear another "Mary went our whoring cause whores go out whoring and she was a whore"....or, "theres no evidence to suggest she may have known her killer"...despite the obvious fact someone very likely came to her room by themselves to kill her, that she dies in her own bed, undressed, and so she was very likely not acquired in "The Ripper" style...while they are actively soliciting, or at the very least, dressed and outdoors after midnight.
Ill leave the thread to you folks, as you obviously have a much greater grasp of the pertinent facts, and what logical reasoning is, than I do.
Its probably very freeing to be able to say Mary went whoring after midnight, without providing any accepted evidence to support that conjecture...that Mary brought clients to her room, despite that evidence on file that suggests she never had done that prior to Nov 1st, and Mary didnt know her attacker, without any proof that was the case.
Believe what you want, Im tired of pointing out the obvious and then having to explain it.
Regards.
I say its night....and it isnt to you... cause its morning. Thats understandable confusion....but not admitting that in the case of Mary Kelly there is evidence that suggests she did not leave her room, or rather there is no credible contrary evidence to suggest otherwise, it is at least 50 % possible that her killer knew her. He either did, or he didnt...but coming to her room and gaining access in the middle of the night, without obvious resistance tilts the odds somewhat. 
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