Can Mary-Jane Kelly ever be found?!

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Sam!

The next question cannot be avoided;

Any Kellies in Cwmafon at about 1879?!

There are none in 1881, however Cwmafon is only 15 miles away from Bedwellty, Monmouthshire, where a "cluster" of plausible Kellys were found by Chris Scott in 2004:

John Kelly aged 22, born Limerick. A general labourer but his 2 fellow lodgers are "cokers" so it is likely his work related to the Ironworks.
James Kelly aged 23 born Cork, Ireland. A boarder listed as a Bessemer Labourer (Steel)
Matthew Kelly aged 35 born Waterford, Ireland. Head of household list as a Furnace labourer (Iron)
William Kelly aged 25 born Ireland. Boarder listed as an Iron labourer
John Kelly aged 30 born Ireland. Lodger listed as a Rail straightener (Iron Works)
James Kelly aged 26 born Ireland. Lodger listed as a Coke filer (Iron Works)
Patrick Kelly aged 40 born Ireland. Boarder listed as an Iron worker

Hope you don't mind, Chris - indeed, I rather hope this gives you food for thought!

[Sam Flynn]

There are none in 1881, however Cwmafon is only 15 miles away from Bedwellty, Monmouthshire, where a "cluster" of plausible Kellys were found by Chris Scott in 2004. Hope you don't mind, Chris - indeed, I rather hope this gives you food for thought!

I was interested to read this article in today's Guardian. It shows how important the iron and coal industries were in the Blaenavon area, particularly during the Victorian Era and the Industrial Revolution - so much so, that it recently received "World Heritage Site" status.

[Graham]

The more I think about MJK and the supposed Welsh industrial disaster that she claimed widowed her, the more I think it's a green mare's nest.

If she was Irish, then maybe she was gifted with all of the story-telling talent of that race and built a 'legend' for herself.

If she was Welsh - and there is at least one witness who claimed that she spoke fluent Welsh - then maybe that does in part support her claim.

I really do think that the 'legend' she constructed was intended to provoke sympathy, and what better than a good old fatal industrial accident?

In the A-Z somewhere is an entry by an investigator who claims that the woman found at 13 Millers Court originated in Cardiff and that she had a daughter, and that that daughter ultimately moved to Bristol. I'm buggered if I can find that entry, but it's there somewhere!

I rather think that the Millers Court woman adopted the name 'Kelly' as a 'nom de rien' because it was so common in the East End at the time, or she picked it up because Joe Barnett was also known as 'Kelly' when it suited him.

Odd it is that the one C5 victim who has attracted the most discussion is the one we know least about.

By the way, Blaenavon was the first mass-production ironworks anywhere that utilised concentrated steam-power to drive its (three) blast furnaces. In the late 18th century it was the world's largest producer of iron ingot.

Cheers,

Graham

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Graham!

Since Mary was the most common Irish girl's name and Kelly the second most common last-name of the time, obviously Mary Kelly was a pseudonyme!

What it comes to claims about the Miller's Court woman, there has been loads of theories made.

But there has always been a tiny missing piece;

The solid proof!

All the best
Jukka

[Graham]

Hello Graham!

Since Mary was the most common Irish girl's name and Kelly the second most common last-name of the time, obviously Mary Kelly was a pseudonyme!

What it comes to claims about the Miller's Court woman, there has been loads of theories made.

But there has always been a tiny missing piece;

The solid proof!

All the best
Jukka

Hello Jukka.

I couldn't say that her name was *obviously* a pseudonym. I went out with a girl called Mary Kelly, and she was as Irish as I am - that is, not Irish at all.
Personally, I tend towards the notion that she really was Welsh - there is no evidence as far as I'm aware that she had an Irish accent, but it's said that she did speak Welsh. Whether she spoke it fluently, I don't know.

I'm still very interested to hear if anyone has any information regarding a supposed daughter of hers who went to live in Bristol. The entry in the A-Z that I couldn't find yesterday is under Allan E. Jones who contributed a piece to Ripperana and mentioned an oral tradition that MJK's daughter was called Agnes Mary and that she lived in Cardiff until 1908 and then moved to Bristol. If anyone can add to this, please do.

Cheers,

Graham

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Graham

I'm still very interested to hear if anyone has any information regarding a supposed daughter of hers who went to live in Bristol.

Bristol, hmmm. I wonder if there's a connection to the Cardiff-born "Mary Ballina" I found lodging in Bristol? (See Page 1 of this thread.)

[Graham]

Hi GrahamBristol, hmmm. I wonder if there's a connection to the Cardiff-born "Mary Ballina" I found lodging in Bristol? (See Page 1 of this thread.)

Dunno, Sam. Allen E. Jones also said that Agnes Mary lived from 1881 - 1942. I am absolutely useless at scouring censusssesssses and so forth, so haven't checked to see if there was an Agnes Mary Anyone living in Bristol between 1908 and 1942.

I'm just very interested to know how and where Jones came by his information.

Cheers,

Graham

[Chris Scott]

From the thread "Can Mary Jane ever be found?"

Graham wrote:
I'm still very interested to hear if anyone has any information regarding a supposed daughter of hers who went to live in Bristol. The entry in the A-Z that I couldn't find yesterday is under Allan E. Jones who contributed a piece to Ripperana and mentioned an oral tradition that MJK's daughter was called Agnes Mary and that she lived in Cardiff until 1908 and then moved to Bristol. If anyone can add to this, please do.
Allen E. Jones also said that Agnes Mary lived from 1881 - 1942

In the 1891 census there is no girl of the forenames Agnes Mary listed in Cardiff born in 1881 (+/- 1 year)
There are six girls of the forenames Agnes M of whom five have both parents listed as living in 1891. The exception is listed below:
12 The Parade, Cardiff
Head: Sarah M Pearson aged 36 born London - Matron Instit.
Boarders:
Katherine L Melworth ahed 50 born Maidstone - Housekeeper
Catherine Flynn aged 20 born Not Known - Servant
Maria Hailstone aged 16 born Yorkshire - Servant
Agnes Crome aged 18 born Holywell - Servant
Catherine M Hart aged 22 born Cardiff - Servant
Annie M Bonn aged 13 born Bradford - Servant
Catherine Sullivan aged 14 born Cardiff - Servant
Emma E Prosser aged 14 born Monmouth - Servant
Ada Griffen aged 18 born London - Servant
Agnes M Stevens aged 11 born Cardiff - Servant

[Chris Scott]

In the year 1881 there are three children of the names Agnes Mary listed born in Cardiff
Agnes Mary A Luen
Agnes Mary E Murphy
Agnes Mary Pearson
For 1879 the list is:
Agnes Mary S Burns
Agnes Mary Lewis
Agnes Mary Smith
For 1880 the list is:
Agnes Mary Holtham
Agnes Mary Williams

[Graham]

In the year 1881 there are three children of the names Agnes Mary listed born in Cardiff
Agnes Mary A Luen
Agnes Mary E Murphy
Agnes Mary Pearson
For 1879 the list is:
Agnes Mary S Burns
Agnes Mary Lewis
Agnes Mary Smith
For 1880 the list is:
Agnes Mary Holtham
Agnes Mary Williams

Hi Chris.

Nice work. I wish I had your skill.

I note the surname 'Murphy' - as Irish as you can get. Makes you wonder...

Cheers,

Graham.

[Chava]

Guys, I'm sorry but this is nuts! Mary Ballina may have been Mary Kelly, or she may have been Mary O'Leary, or she may have been Theresa Daly. We have no reason to believe that she was the woman in Millers Court. And as far as I can see we have no reason to suppose Kelly was an 'artist' of any kind beyond the fact that she belted out 'It Was Only a Violet' loud enough to bother the neighbours on the night she died. We have no reason to suppose she had an acute sense of humour either. We have a few words of hers as reported by witnesses and none of them are particularly funny.

The big problem is that we are taking Mary Jane Kelly's story at face value. She says she went to France with a gentleman, but I imagine that was only to make herself sound more attractive and exotic. She says she was in a West End fancy house: ditto. She says she was widowed at 16 and lost her young husband in a mining accident. He just happens to have one of the commonest Welsh surnames, and we still can't find an accident that might have killed him. I think that one was to make herself sound more pathetic and to explain to a sentimental punter why she went on the game. Kelly absolutely did not do anything to deserve what happened to her. But please let's not romanticize her. I think she gets this 'artistic' 'sense of humour' stuff because she wasn't toothless and decrepit like the other poor victims. Do we see this kind of stuff in the Nicholls thread or the Chapman thread? How about the Stride thread? Long Liz had a similar sob story to Kelly's. She'd lost her husband and golden haired little children in the Princess Alice. Do we give that a second's worth of credibility? Do we hell. But Kelly's tragically dead young husband? We're chasing down the Rhondda Valley mining disasters like there's no tomorrow.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Chava,

Excellent post.

After 119 years of getting nowhere it should have occurred to us all by now that MJK's history was complete fiction.

Regards,

Simon

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Simon!

Yes, it is a fiction. And probably it was a cover-up.

But - I don't know, who said this, but it's a brilliant sentense anyway - "the best lie is almost true!"

All the best
Jukka

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Chava,

Long Liz had a similar sob story to Kelly's. She'd lost her husband and golden haired little children in the Princess Alice. Do we give that a second's worth of credibility? Do we hell.

The Princess Alice incident was a disaster that occurred on a named vessel in London, and was well known at the time. Kelly's story is of an accident at an unnamed mine - but that may well have been a typical "down on me luck" sob-story.

As to the wider picture - whilst I have little doubt that Kelly's story is riddled with fabrication - why on earth does she mention Carmarthen/Caernarfon (or something like it) in the first place? It's not as if such places were "up there" in working-class consciousness at the time - at least, not to the extent that London, Liverpool or even Cardiff would have been... or Paris, for that matter.

It is the very banality of Carmarthen/Caernarfon that might lend her story at least a little credence. And it ain't because I'm Welsh - if she'd said "Walsall" or "Scunthorpe" I'd think the same.

[Chava]

Sam, I think she probably came from Wales somewhere, because she does mention Carmarthen. But I think the rest of it is a sob-story and nothing more.

And in my opinion, finding out who she was isn't important. It's finding out who killed her that's important. The only way her identity comes into play is if the woman murdered in Millers Court isn't Mary Jane Kelly at all. Which I'm not suggesting is the case.