Can Mary-Jane Kelly ever be found?!

[coral]

Thanks for your support Richard.

I might be a little niaive but I will always believe what I am told - at some stage a liar will always be found out. I have had may email 'conversations' with Fiona and dont doubt her words. We have here someone willing to come to a WS meeting to talk about her family and show family memoriablia.

What more could you ask for?

Coral

[coral]

Thanks John for the offer of the book.

But surely a photocopy would take up time & money? If you want it signed my her niece please send it to me.

Coral

[Suzi]

Hi Coral

Some seriously interesting stuff here isn't it...Now there's a lot of things that may be complete toot -but I always think therein sometimes lie some things that are worth a thrawl through 'eh....I'm a great fan of someone's box in someone's attic me!- and John's book sounds fascinating!...

....Don't think I'll be able to make it till after "The Holiday" though, may be Sept/Oct ish sadly...Hope you're both well!... Love to all at the meetings though!..See you on the pavement when I make it!

Love Suzi x

[coral]

Having looked at this thread I am beginning to think that I hijacked it. My part needs to be moved elsewhere.

Sorry.

Coral

[John Savage]

Hi Coral,

I could photocopy it as it only runs to about 70 pages, which won't break the bank. Or if you wish I am happy to send you the original, I just thought it might be of interest to you or Fiona if you have not seen it before.
Especially as you are arranging a talk.

If you want the book PM me your address and I will put it in the post.

Rgds
John

[The Good Michael]

I think it's great that you have her as a guest speaker. It is too bad that she couldn't handle a little questioning of her knowledge of who JTR was and had to flee the site. I'm sure she'll have some grand stories to tell. Don't ask for corroboration, or she'll flee again. Just believe everything she tells you and then send her back to the Seaside Home.

Cheers,

Mike

[richardnunweek]

Hi Mike,
I assume you are one of many on the site that needs one hundred per cent proof of any claim to oral history.?
We all know that is most unlikely, but in Fiona we have a direct descendant[ proven] of Mary Kellys landlord, which means her grandfather was in the court with his mother when Bowyer discovered the body.
Now that alone is intresting is it not?.
It goes without saying that the events of the 9th november 88, would have stayed firmly in the memories of all present that day, and all of them would have had storys to pass down,but in the case of the McCarthys,who because of their status on the scene, may have been in poccession of more knowledge then most, and it is most likely that opinions were formed on the identity of the killer, which would have filltered down through generations.
I can see nothing abnormal about that.
I should add that I am not gullible, but I being a gentleman, will always show respect 'initially' to any claim made.
Only if the claim was obviously bogus would I place them in the seaside home...
Regards Richard.

[The Good Michael]

Richard,

I assume you are one of many on the site that needs one hundred per cent proof of any claim to oral history.?

No, I just need someone credible with more than simply family stories passed down. Oral history is never completely true. I repeat: NEVER. It is always about perspective.

I should add that I am not gullible, but I being a gentleman, will always show respect 'initially' to any claim made.

I will too, if they don't come off like eccentric doddards, which in this case, is what happened. Even then, she wasn't abused, only questioned and that made her take off like a greyhound.

Cheers,

Mike

[Observer]

Hi

If as has been suggested Kelly was using a ficticious surname, then surely her real surname would have emerged. If Kelly was not her real surname I can relate to her family not wanting to let it be known that they were callled Fazackerly for example. But the murders were world news, someone, somewhere would have known the true surname of Kelly, and the press would have paid for such information, I find it hard to believe that if she was not called Kelly, then her true surname did not emerge.

Observer

[Debra A]

This has probably been posted before, but I couldn't find it or anything similar in the press reports section. I came across this last week in the Cardiff Western Mail of Nov 13 1888
It gives a Welsh reporters view of whereabouts Mary Jane Kelly may have lived when in Wales, going by Barnett's ironworks and colliery disaster stories. It has an obvious link to the John Rees/Abby Kelly story, but this appeared as a separate article.

Debs

The fact that Marie Jeanette Kelly, the last victim of the Whitechapel fiend, was at one time a resident of Wales naturally intensifies the interest felt throughout the Principality in the mysterious and melancholy massacre of London unfortunates. So far the attempts made to identify the poor girl in Wales have not been very successful, which is not surprising looking to the contradictory character of the information secured in London. Her paramour's evidence at the inquest leaves much open to conjecture. She had told him that she was born in Limerick, but when very young was brought to Wales by her father, John Kelly, a "gaffer" in an ironworks in either Carnarvonshire or Carmarthenshire. The latter county was the one meant, no doubt, since the northern shire has no ironworks. This information inferentially brings us back to the original statement, that the father was employed at Llanelly, the only town in Carmarthenshire which had an ironworks years ago. Interpreting the additional statement that she married a collier named DAVIES, who was killed in a colliery explosion, by the light of local knowledge the event which widowed her must have occured outside that county, where the collieries are almost without exception not dangerously fiery, and where no serious explosions seems to have happened during the last five or six years. The name KELLY is familiar enough in Llanelly, and there should be no difficulty in ascertaining the truth of the victim's story. The very circumstancial information supplied today by our Swansea reporter throws a new light on the subject. Unless there be a mistake in the identification-and the presumption is opposed to that-he has dispersed all the mystery which enveloped her Welsh antecedents.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Debs!

An interesting piece of news, really!

And yet even the reporter couldn't solve the following question;

which Kelly?!

All the best
Jukka

[Chris Scott]

A very interesting piece which I had certainly never seen before
However...

"The latter county was the one meant, no doubt, since the northern shire has no ironworks..."
This certainly does not seem to be the case as a search of Carnarvonshire in the 1881 Wales census certainly throws up a substantial number of those working in the iron industry

and a Google search for ironworks in Caernarvonshire gives details

Chris

[Chris Scott]

"The name KELLY is familiar enough in Llanelly"

Kellys in Llanelly in 1881

42 Nern Road, Llanelly
Head: Julia Kelly aged 60 born Ireland
Daughters:
Abbey Kelly aged 22 born Llanelly
Margaret Brewer (Married) aged 20 born Llanelly

Ciliwrfa Row, Llanelly
Lodging House
Boarders:
John Kelly aged 49 born Ireland - Pedlar / Costermonger
Mary Kelly aged 45 born Ireland - Pedlar

[Debra A]

The reporter was obviously manipulating the facts to back up the identification he had made.

[Natalie Severn]

Debs,
Thanks for this, it really shows that quite extensive searches were made by reporters to locate her family.The first thing that springs to mind is why couldnt they trace her,if her name and age are right? We are told she looked older than the age she told Barnett-24/5.Nearer 30 according to her landlord McCarthy.But we are not told McCarthy had any difficulty over her name "Kelly". I think its understandable,if Mary had been on the game since 18 as has been suggested,as well as being a heavy drinker ,frequently very late in bed----it was after 1 when she was last seen by her neighbour.She may have looked older.
But McCarthy claimed he had seen letters addressed to her from Ireland---surely they didnt have just her first name on them? So did they have her real name on them?
There is the possibility that she gave his name to her folk-ie McCarthy,as several have commented that she sometimes went by the name of McCarthy.But ofcourse that doesnt mean her name was McCarthy.They must have just let her use it for posting purposes.
So if she wasnt named Kelly,why did she conceal her real name from everyone who knew her in Whitechapel including Joe Barnett?
Once again I am wondering whether Mary was related to any of the Fenians-----a number of them blew themselves up in dynamite attacks that went wrong so hubbie Davies could have been one of these-not killed in a mining disaster at all but a scotched dynamite attack.
When Inspector Abberline arrested "James Gilbert" in the Tower of London in 1885 over a bombing outrage, further enquiries revealed he had digs in Mitre Square with a man named Burton and that "Gilbert"s " real name was Cunningham.How did they find this out? His landlady found letters with his real name on them from his mother who lived in Skiberdeen,County Cork.I wonder if Mary harked from some pocket of Ireland such as this because thats were quite a few of them harked from?I have always found it strange none of her family came to her funeral.All the other victims had relatives who came except the Swedish Liz Stride ofcourse.
In an earlier dynamite explosion in the same year,a man named John Fleming had been blown up along with two others when the dynamite went off too soon and accidently killed all three.
The Irish Mrs Phoenix-previously named McCarthy---[ was Phoenix her real name or did she adopt it from the Phoenix Park assassination by any chance? ] was related to Kelly"s Breezer Park landlord -yet another Mr John McCarthy.Mrs Phoenix had known Kelly the three years previously ,when she lodged in her brother -in -laws house--- the other McCarthy,unrelated to the Dorset St ones- in Breezers Hill. The press association discoveredfrom her that Mary went from Breezers Hill to live with a man named Joseph Fleming,a plasterer from Bethnal Green who Chris Scott has traced.Joe Fleming later changed his name-I forget what to-but it was prior to his entrance to the Loony Bin. I wonder whether he was related to the dynamitard Fleming who blew himself by accident with the other two dynamitards in February 1885?


Anyway,they clearly put out quite a few searches for Mary,none of them yielding much information