Mary Kellys cadaver would not be out of place....

[Magpie]

Has anyone taken into account that a piled mass of viscera may have also moved/shifts as the tissue started to loss moisture? Not signficantly, you understand but enough to give an unordered pile of goop the appearance of a more deliberate placement?

[Sam Flynn]

Good point, Mags. The drying-out of various organs/tissues - we're talking several hours here, remember - might well have affected their configuration somewhat. I've previously speculated that torsion in the tissues of the neck might have caused the head to loll over, and that remains a possibility as far as I'm concerned. The "crabbing" of the fingers of the left hand could certainly have been caused by sinews/muscles contracting due to various post-mortem processes acting upon them.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Sam!

In fact, I thought about the following thing;

Has any of our members with medical expertise ever presented a thorough analysis about the dry-out of MJK's organs?!

My personal impression is, that various organs have a different timeline with drying-out!

All the best
Jukka

[Magpie]

We'd also have to factor in the drying effects from the blazing fire coming from one end of the room. Would the fully exposed viscera on the table dry out faster than the viscera nestles in wet bedclothing.

[perrymason]

We'd also have to factor in the drying effects from the blazing fire coming from one end of the room. Would the fully exposed viscera on the table dry out faster than the viscera nestles in wet bedclothing.

I guess one factor that would impact that is whether the pile was made around 3 or 4am or after 9am.

There is a formulaic answer for that available by her body stiffness at 1:30pm and the undigested food.

Again though.....the overall scene is essentially a gore fest, there is bone protruding, organ and viscera piled here and there, her face is ruined and horrifying....there must have been blood soaked through that bed....the scene was something that not everyone could stomach, let alone create.

Does that indicate the killer had some comfort with seeing internal organs and tissues and blood?

I obviously feel med students would be steeled to this kind of thing.....would a fish gutter? Or a slaughterman? Or a Butcher?

Best regards

[Sam Flynn]

Does that indicate the killer had some comfort with seeing internal organs and tissues and blood?

I obviously feel med students would be steeled to this kind of thing.....would a fish gutter? Or a slaughterman? Or a Butcher?

Quite possibly. Or "none of the above", if the killer were sufficiently twisted - which he undoubtedly was.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello perrymason!

I obviously feel med students would be steeled to this kind of thing.....would a fish gutter? Or a slaughterman? Or a Butcher?

Maybe a med student, fish gutter, slaughterman or a butcher, that is frustrated and bored with his studies/occupation?!

All the best
Jukka

[perrymason]

Quite possibly. Or "none of the above", if the killer were sufficiently twisted - which he undoubtedly was.

The issue I have with that kind of supposition Sam is that there are infinitely more possibilities than just a madman here....and the madman who cuts women open in public is such a minority of the population position to take.

If there were men that did what was done to Mary Jane to human cadavers or animals or something that required or ensured some anatomical savvy.....why look for a motivation by the killer that necessitates his being insane to have done what is done in that room?

The whole point of this thread was....that one doesnt have to imagine that only a madman could create that mess and be in that kind of environment. There were other men that could and did do just that nearly everyday.

All the best Gareth

[Sam Flynn]

The issue I have with that kind of supposition Sam is that there are infinitely more possibilities than just a madman here...

Oh, I don't like the "madman" cop-out either, Mike. It's just that, in this case, it's not a cop-out at all. Few, if any, ripper-type murderers - either before 1888 or since - have had any connection with what might loosely be called "the anatomical trades".

[ChrisGeorge]

Oh, I don't like the "madman" cop-out either, Mike. It's just that, in this case, it's not a cop-out at all. Few, if any, ripper-type murderers - either before 1888 or since - have had any connection with what might loosely be called "the anatomical trades".

As I have said before, where's the thrill if you do it as your day job?

Chris

[perrymason]

As I have said before, where's the thrill if you do it as your day job?

Chris

In the case of Annies killer Chris, whose to say he didnt make himself 20L for his troubles,.....quite a bit of Victorian era dosh.

All the best Chris.

[Sam Flynn]

In the case of Annies killer Chris, whose to say he didnt make himself 20L for his troubles.

As I've said umpteen times before, the £20 "Uterus Monthly" idea didn't come to light until AFTER Annie was killed, owing to that irresponsible twonk Wynne Baxter spouting his ludicrous theory in full earshot of the press.

[perrymason]

As I've said umpteen times before, the £20 "Uterus Monthly" idea didn't come to light until AFTER Annie was killed, owing to that irresponsible twonk Wynne Baxter spouting his ludicrous theory in full earshot of the press.

Yes Sam, the idea to link the Ripper event and the incident came after the killing....but the actual incident itself took place before the killings, so the premise of an offer to buy uteri as a possible catayst for killing Annie wasnt just Baxters cwazy thinkin.... there was a real story that predated the killings to establish a foundation for that "idea".

And despite the fact that you hate the Burking idea for any of the Ripper killings, or that the real Ripper series might actually be confined to only the victims that share the above motivation for the murders itself....both are still very possible scenarios using only the existing evidence.

We have the medical opinions that the obtaining of a uterus was a possible motivation for only the murders of Mary Ann Nichols and Annie Chapman, and we have a verified story that a Teaching Hospital in the area was approached in 1887 by an American Doctor seeking samples of uteri to accompany his research papers back to the US, willing to pay the extraordinary figure of 20L per sample.

Kate Eddowes may have been killed for the same reason, the stump of the uterus left behind was only 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch.....taking the kidney might have been to throw off the hunters.

Cheers Sam

[Paddy Goose]

the stump of the uterus left behind was only 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch.....taking the kidney might have been to throw off the hunters.

I feel a good urp coming on. A real technicolor urp. For dinner we had turkey tettrazini, green peas, sweet potatoes and fresh garden salad.

Paddy

[Sam Flynn]

Yes Sam, the idea to link the Ripper event and the incident came after the killing...

The salient point is that the publicity did. How was the average man in the street going to know about about this (alleged) approach by that American quack otherwise?