Mary Kellys cadaver would not be out of place....

[Guest]

...in a room where Victorian era Medical students perform dissections.

Hi all,

In our local paper this past weekend, The Globe and Mail, there was a review of a book called "Photographs of a rite of Passage in American Medicine, 1880-1930, by John Harley Warner and James A Edmonson, by Blast Books,.....in which the journalist discusses the rite of passage that Dissections were seen as, and the inhumanity that arose with some of the students who became dulled to the sight of stripped carcasses and organs laying about in trays.

The students were often hardened by the experiences and came to see the dismantled forms as less than people, and more like meat. There are pictures within the book that show students gathered around a skeleton stripped of skin, but intact otherwise, and cards were held up for the photo saying" She lived for others but died for us", or, "Rest in pieces".

Today, the same dissections take place, but with a more ingrained sense of respect for the remains, and often only after technology has allowed the students to view the remains and the structures "digitally".

Is the mess in room 13 something only someone experienced in the disassembling of human beings could stand to be in? Isnt the methodical removal and placement of organs very similar to that which would be seen in operating theaters with med students?

Could that thought put new light on the Torsos and their potential connections to the killer or killers?

All the best.

[kensei]

Is the mess in room 13 something only someone experienced in the disassembling of human beings could stand to be in? Isnt the methodical removal and placement of organs very similar to that which would be seen in operating theaters with med students?

Could that thought put new light on the Torsos and their potential connections to the killer or killers?

It is an interesting theory but I guess I'll answer with some thoughts that just sprang to mind as I was reading it. One, the mindset of such a medical student who had been around such bodily disassembly would not necessarily also prepare him to have to be the one to kill the person first. You mention how they came to see the bodies as not human, but cutting into a living woman would be quite a different experience. Second, if it was Jack the Ripper who killed Mary Jane, no matter what his profession he could be said to be someone at least slightly "experienced in the disassembling of human beings" since he had been doing just that little by little on his earlier victims.

As for the torso killings, I've always allowed myself to wonder not so much was Mary a victim of that person rather than of the Ripper, but whether Torso and the Ripper were the same person. (Though I know that's not a popular view.)

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!

Personally I don't find anything methodical or ritual with the mess in Miller's Court!

All the best
Jukka

[Tenth Bell]

I own the book of which you speak, Michael. "Dissection..."
My father is a physician/surgeon of 30+ years, and I suppose my intention was to enjoy the book and then share it with him afterwards. I, too, work inside of the surgical arena - as an interoperative radiographer.
In short, I just wanted to share that the book is wonderful - rich in photography - and well constructed.
Highly recommended!

[Sam Flynn]

I, too, work inside of the surgical arena - as an interoperative radiographer.

I once tried to blag myself a job in radiography... but they saw through me right away

[babybird67]

Sam...

you should do stand up!

You always bring a smile to my face! Thank you!

[Magpie]

you should do stand up!

Sam tried that after the radiographer gig, but promoters said his material was too X-rayted.

[Howard Brown]

Is the mess in room 13 something only someone experienced in the disassembling of human beings could stand to be in? Isnt the methodical removal and placement of organs very similar to that which would be seen in operating theaters with med students?
--Mike

Dear Mike:

As mentioned, there does seem to be a sense of intentionality in the placement of some of the innards....but as to it being methodical, I would be hesitant to agree with that completely, with all due respect.

That the innards were placed on the table doesn't necessarily...to me...demonstrate a plan or as you suggest, method, but possibly more out of something else...although you may well be right,old bean...

It might have been a spur of the moment decision he reached without giving it too much thought.... that those organs he had in his mitts need to go "somewhere" and that "somewhere" was right next to him...the table.

Later Mike.

[perrymason]

Is the mess in room 13 something only someone experienced in the disassembling of human beings could stand to be in? Isnt the methodical removal and placement of organs very similar to that which would be seen in operating theaters with med students?
--Mike

Dear Mike:

As mentioned, there does seem to be a sense of intentionality in the placement of some of the innards....but as to it being methodical, I would be hesitant to agree with that completely, with all due respect.

That the innards were placed on the table doesn't necessarily...to me...demonstrate a plan or as you suggest, method, but possibly more out of something else...although you may well be right,old bean...

It might have been a spur of the moment decision he reached without giving it too much thought.... that those organs he had in his mitts need to go "somewhere" and that "somewhere" was right next to him...the table.

Later Mike.

Thanks for the posts all,

You know Howard Ive often thought that we could decifer his dominant hand from some of those "placements". I think it shows that he was indeed likely left handed....the killer in room 13 anyway.

My best regards mate

[Tenth Bell]

Sam...

Ahhhh... Touché, Sam. That was nicely positioned ; )

[Supe]

Howard,

It might have been a spur of the moment decision he reached without giving it too much thought.... that those organs he had in his mitts need to go "somewhere" and that "somewhere" was right next to him...the table.

Reading your post I was reminded of the onerous task of cleaning a basment or just a small room (if it's my bedroom). A point is always reached when the place looks messier than when you started, but that is because things seem to get piled "wherever." In practice, this stage actually means you are close to finishing, but the operative word is "wherever"--no real method to it, just putting things where there is room at the moment.

And while I certainly can't speak for all dissection rooms, thanks to a medical student friend I was once "privileged" to spend some time in a dissection room and there was no great order to the body parts on each table; just piled neatly but "wherever."

And I'll add that Jean gave a consummate wiseguy like me the ultimate straight line when she asked if I could "give her a hand." And yes, I did.

Don.

[perrymason]

And while I certainly can't speak for all dissection rooms, thanks to a medical student friend I was once "privileged" to spend some time in a dissection room and there was no great order to the body parts on each table; just piled neatly but "wherever."


Don.

Hi Don,

I think that comment supports the thread premise. What I find fascinating about that crime scene isnt the gore and entrails placed here and there, its that he lifted her head to place some organs there.

Almost everything that is done to Mary Kelly we might see in photographs of dissection rooms of the period....I started this thread after I saw such an image...but the actions like pacing a uterus and a breast under her head seem......... immature to me. Unlike someone who had been taught to respect the remains of the people they dissect in class. More like someone personally interacting with the deceased.

Thats the impression I get anyway.

Cheers Don

[Sam Flynn]

What I find fascinating about that crime scene isnt the gore and entrails placed here and there, its that he lifted her head to place some organs there.

Or the head lolled over on top of them, Mike. We can't rule that out.

[perrymason]

Or the head lolled over on top of them, Mike. We can't rule that out.

Im sure thats a possibility Sam, but we have other organs set aside in unusual places although not another one that required moving any part of the deceased to place it there. We also have a left arm where it could not have been during the dissection, so it therefore must have been moved after by the killer. The innards on the table to me is only relevant when determining his probable dominant hand and body position while placing them there, they needed to go somewhere... and that seems as sensible as over the shoulders in the street murders.

I cannot get over how similar Marys corpse looks to female cadavers being surgically de-engineered by young men in operating theatres, with promising medical careers ahead of them. There is a ghoulish feeling one gets about that aspect of medical training, it seems many of the men themselves dealt with that with humour.

Could there be irony in his choice of organ placement, symbolically? I dont have an opinion on this...just asking.

Cheers Sam

[Sam Flynn]

Im sure thats a possibility Sam, but we have other organs set aside in unusual places

...but far, far more of them were just dumped, though, in rather practical places (over the side, on the table). And - let's not forget - one of her breasts was dumped near the bottom of the bed. If he wanted to be "symbolic", why not shove both breasts under the head?

The likes of Stephen Knight and Dan Brown have a lot to answer for.