The thread-queen of the victims!

[Tron]

Well, aside from the fact that very little is known about her, some of us feel that there is just too much wild speculation going on and try to come up with hard facts (not too successful so far, oh well...lol).

[GRISTLE]

I believe the overwhelming interest in MJK versus the remaining C5 is owed primarily to the fact of the complete mystery of her identity. I will admit the fact that she's reportedly younger and more attractive perhaps add to that interest, but MJK has to be considered among the top mysteries within the whole JTR saga.

[mariag]

Because we know so little about her it is possible, as Jason says, to fill in the blanks with almost anything.

She might have been a Fenian. She might have been a government agent spying on the Fenians. And on and on.

Long ago there was a series of threads called "Back to Basics" about each victim. I think that going back to basics and applying some brakes, slashing with Occam's Razor is a good thing every now and then.

[honey]

i think its the lasting image of the photo of her in some of the JTR books that makes her the one most of us think of.. as well as the fact that she is mostly accepted to being the last victim... which leads on to the mystery of why she was the last one..

[jason_c]

We have Mary Kelly the artist.
Kelly the lesbian.
Kelly the feminist.
Kelly the abused woman.
Kelly the beautiful.
Kelly the actress.
Kelly the femme fatale.
And Kelly, the distant relation of one of England's great post war actresses.

Some of this is romanticizing, some of it genuine intrigue.

Hi Jukka,

I feel that one of the primary reasons that Marys gets such a workout in threads is because she is the one victim that may not have been dressed, outside, and doing what could be construed as soliciting when she meets her killer. And I guess I'm one of the few that believes the manner of approach and acquisition to be something that needn't have changed, and had been 100% successful with all the priors attributed.

Shes obviously the most dramatic, the most gruesome spectacle, and I suppose that re-enforces the mad serial killer concept for most people that they have going up until her death, and she is thought to be the last, so if correct, then maybe as relevant as which was actually his first, and she is the only victim we know of that had variations of her name and address used by the previous victim as aliases. Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset on the pawn ticket, and the last given when booked as Mary Kelly of Fashion St.

My thinking is if you're very curious as to what the real story is with Mary Kelly, one might also consider whether her and Kate's mysteries are mutually exclusive. I think its interesting that on the weekend Kate is killed, a Post Office robbery also occurred. It would be interesting if somehow a Ripper murder is also included with the committing of another "profit" motivated crime, that had some tangential link with Mary.

My best Jukka....nice to see you here again since The Crash of 08.

[Lord Lucan]

To me, it's the sheer brutality of the murder that sticks in my mind where Mary is concerned. She may be portrayed as younger or prettier but I recall the first time ever I saw the death scene photgraphs...the image haunted me for days. To think that someone could do that is almost unimaginable, yet it happened...and no one knows why or who did it.

[paul emmett]

But wait awhile and I'm sure you will see what was meant. Message board themes are pretty much like watching a merry-go-round--the same horses keep reappearing regularly.Don.

Hi, Don. I'll take your word for it. And that's why I was originally sharing my positive experience of MJK threads: I was looking for new horses.

I would have liked to see those Liz Taylor/MJK pics, cuz I had always been conviced that Kelly was the spitting image of Marilyn Monroe.

Paul

[Chava]

It's not the youth and beauty with me. I doubt she was particularly beautiful, although probably more attractive than the others primarily because she seems to have had all her teeth! I'm not buying her 'time in a high-class fancy house and her trip to Paris' either. Just that she is the victim that breaks the pattern in so many ways and there are so many loose ends and questions. As well we have a whole roomful of crime-scene to deconstruct, whereas in the other murders, we just had the street and the bodies.

I would agree that Chapman is the core murder. That one interests me almost as much. Nicholls doesn't particularly interest me. And the double event only because it looks to me like he's trying to push the blame on the Jews.

[Supe]

Blackkat,

Yes I have a question. What is the whole story on MJK having Joe read to her about the ripper? Wasn't it said that she was terrified of the ripper?

The whole story likely isn't much of a story at all. Rather, it was probably a rare glimpse of domestic bliss at No. 12 Miller's Court. Back before CDs, TV, radio or even magic lanterns, families (and couples) would, of an evening, sit in front of a fire. A woman's work never being done they would almost always be busy with their hands sewing, darning, knitting, etc. And the man, often enjoying his pipe, would read aloud from a book or newspaper.

There is an interesting letter sent to the Metropolitan Police from a woman in Staffordshire in Stewart Evans and Donald Rumbelow's Jack the Ripper: Scotland Yard Investigates in which she describes just that situation; sitting in front of the fire with her husband reading to her about Jack while she was knitting. And, the Ripper murders being so well publicized, it's no surprise Mary would have wanted Joe to read about that than, say, the doings in Patliament.

As far as being afraid of someone, Barnett's testimony is contradictory, but does not suggest an inordinate fear. He said at the inquest "...she seemed afraid of someone, she did not express fear of any particular individual except when she rowed with me but we always came to terms quickly." Make of that what you can.

Don.

[Supe]

Paul,

Unfortunately, the crash has rendered much of where I would suggest you look an exercise in futility. But even if the archives are unrecoverable, a look at the 2007 and earlier CDs would show an inordinate number of threads devoted to all the vexing questions of MJK. And many, as well, that would support Maria's contention. Those concerning reconstructions of her face were particularly so. As I recall, there was something of a consensus that any "portraits" of Kelly make her rather more beautiful than the young Liz Taylor.

But wait awhile and I'm sure you will see what was meant. Message board themes are pretty much like watching a merry-go-round--the same horses keep reappearing regularly.

Don.

[paul emmett]

Don. Neither seemly nor satisfactory, of course. And while I'm not saying it's never done, it has been my experience with MJK threads, pre and post crash, that there is very little romanticizing. I was merely using "Slip Up" as the paradigm. Indeed, I haven't even found anywhere near the origin chasing here that I have in some of the published work on MJK, even though I do agree that it might help with some of the other questions.

I guess when I came here today from the Kelly threads, I had been hoping that more people would offer their opinions on some of the many complexities involved.

Paul

[Supe]

Graham,

It was Amelia Farmer who said that Annie Chapman had told her late on the afternoon before her murder "It's no use my giving way. I must pull myself together and go out and get some money, or I shall have no lodgings." Farmer had known her for several years and since it was at the inquest at least it was sworn testimony--for what that is worth.

Paul,

Regardless of what impression the one thread you read gave, MariaG is quite accurate when she speaks of a tendency by some posters to romanticize "Mary Kelly." In contrast, there is a smaller, but quite vocal, gaggle of posters who consider the victims as nothing more than butchered bodies on a morgue table. Neither approach is very seemly or satisfactory.

Personally, I think that much of the interest in Kelly is generated by a search for her origins. Not only is this seemingly insoluble puzzle a magnet for researchers and theorists alike, but it is entirely possible that learning the actual background of "Mary Kelly" would shed light on some of the other imponderables of her murder.

Don.

[Blackkat]

Yes I have a question. What is the whole story on MJK having Joe read to her about the ripper? Wasn't it said that she was terrified of the ripper?


Second, was she called Black Mary because of her temper, and being territorial or what? Other explainations for this nickname besides the above?

[paul emmett]

The problem with Kelly for me, the thing that makes me groan when I see new threads about her, is the blatant romanticizing that goes on by some people. I gnash my teeth when I hear about how young and beautiful she was, how she had fallen from some high class position, how she was a veritable paragon among hookers.

Hello, all.

I've just come from a reading of the longest new MJK thread, "Jack had to Slip Up," and I didn't find any romanticizing at all. I think the reasons for intrest in Kelly are many. First and foremost there are so many unresolved issues: the key, the fire, Hutchinson, Lurking Man, time of death, the body in the bed, Maxwell, . . .. The list just goes on and on. Also, obviously, many like to study the differences in the Kelly killing, to see not just who the killer was but whether or not it was JTR. Ultimately, most see it as the last killing, and the "psychological" issues of why Jack stopped are just the tip of the iceberg; it seems that so much more of Jack's psych is hinted at with MJK. If we are to "find" JTR in any sense, I think the MJK crime scene will lead the way.