The thread-queen of the victims!

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!

I couldn't help noticing again, that Marie Jeanette gets on these restored boards - again - more threads than the other victims.

Just; how is that? That she was so young? That she was extremely brutally murdered, even with JtR standards?

All the best
Jukka

[Robert]

Hi Jukka

There's probably some added interest because she was so young - and the only victim to resemble the normal JTR movie idea of what Jack's victims were like. Also, we know virtually nothing of her background, so there's a mystery within a mystery.

Obviously, Barnettists will focus on MJK. Jewish suspect fans tend to go for the Double Event.

Robert

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Robert!

Probably that's the case.

With me the whole aim was just to write a short-story about a MJK's "could-have-been" backround and nothing more. So, my main interest was definitely her not so well known backround.

But her I am still, posting on the threads!

All the best
Jukka

[mariag]

Frankly, I'm much more interested in Eddowes than anyone else.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Maria!

That's the interesting thing on these boards, that everyone has one's own main interests!

I have gradually become interested about the case as a whole.

In general, every victim has something interesting, like Liz Stride being originally a farm-girl from Sweden...

All the best
Jukka

[mariag]

I can see the infatuation with Kelly- she was he ultimate victim, both in time and in level of mutilation. Her murder is different from the others in many ways and we know virtually nothing about her past.

The problem with Kelly for me, the thing that makes me groan when I see new threads about her, is the blatant romanticizing that goes on by some people. I gnash my teeth when I hear about how young and beautiful she was, how she had fallen from some high class position, how she was a veritable paragon among hookers.

[Graham]

Hi Jukka

There's probably some added interest because she was so young - and the only victim to resemble the normal JTR movie idea of what Jack's victims were like. Also, we know virtually nothing of her background, so there's a mystery within a mystery.

Obviously, Barnettists will focus on MJK. Jewish suspect fans tend to go for the Double Event.

Robert

Robert,

Do what? Are you seriously suggesting that MJK resembled some Hammer Horror bit-part actress with heaving bosoms hardly concealed by her tightly-laced bodice, and with a head of flaming red hair, etc., etc?

For a long time I and others tried to talk sense into those who, for whatever reason, chose to romanticise MJK, but it seems our efforts were in vain in some cases. Mariag has got it right - MJK might have been a few years younger than the other JtR victims, but until someone produces an actual photo of her we'll never know what she looked like. And to be honest, although others may disagree, the crime-scene photos always suggested to me a rather stout, even large, person. Walter Dew said she was 'good looking', and apparently well-dressed, but I do tend to take with a large pinch of saly anything that Dew said about the Ripper Case.

Come down from Cloud Cuckoo Land, Robert - MJK was a common prostitute, no more, no less. Joe Barnett may well have repeated what she told him about her background, but his testimony is virtually the sum-total of what we know about her. And for all we know, Joe may have been Mr Gullible 1888, perfectly ready and willing to believe anything he was told by the woman he fancied. Also, always bear in mind that for all his apparent working-class respectability, Joe spent a whole lot of his time with a prostitute.

Good on you, Mariag - best MJK post since the Great Website Crash!

Right, that's it - off my soap-box now!

Cheers,

Graham

[Robert]

Hi Graham

No, I wasn't romanticising her. What I should have said was, she came closest to resembling the film idea of a JTR victim. She probably didn't wear low-cut dresses, or speak with a Cockney accent, etc. But she was young and seems to have had two or three men seriously interested in her.

That was to answer Jukka's question re the general interest in Kelly. For myself, I'm interested in all the victims, though there are certain things about the Kelly murder - to do with the locked door and the fire rather than Kelly herself - which also pose interesting questions.

I liked Chapman's remark, "I mustn't give way" and Eddowes seems to have been a bit of a character.

Robert

[Graham]

Robert,

Okay, no problem. But you'll understand from my post that I am not by any means a MJK romanticist....

Where did you come by Chapman's "I mustn't give way" remark? New to me, that. Unless my A-Z needs updating - which it probably does, as I believe that there's been a new edition since I bought mine in 1997.

I agree with you that Eddowes was certainly a character - no Cockney she, but a hard West Midlands piece. And probably not even on the game, even, but just a poor soul trying to make a half-way honest living....wow, I'm beginning to romaticise her!

Cheers,

Graham

[sdreid]

I like Eddowes best as well. Chapman is sort of the anchor murder so I think it's the most important killing. The first and last murders would also be very important but we can't seem to agree on which was first and which was last.

[Robert]

Hi Graham

I can't put my finger on it at present, but it was something she said to one of her friends, when she was feeling very poorly after she got into a fight.

She was, of course, more or less terminally ill.

Robert

[paul emmett]

The problem with Kelly for me, the thing that makes me groan when I see new threads about her, is the blatant romanticizing that goes on by some people. I gnash my teeth when I hear about how young and beautiful she was, how she had fallen from some high class position, how she was a veritable paragon among hookers.

Hello, all.

I've just come from a reading of the longest new MJK thread, "Jack had to Slip Up," and I didn't find any romanticizing at all. I think the reasons for intrest in Kelly are many. First and foremost there are so many unresolved issues: the key, the fire, Hutchinson, Lurking Man, time of death, the body in the bed, Maxwell, . . .. The list just goes on and on. Also, obviously, many like to study the differences in the Kelly killing, to see not just who the killer was but whether or not it was JTR. Ultimately, most see it as the last killing, and the "psychological" issues of why Jack stopped are just the tip of the iceberg; it seems that so much more of Jack's psych is hinted at with MJK. If we are to "find" JTR in any sense, I think the MJK crime scene will lead the way.

[Blackkat]

Yes I have a question. What is the whole story on MJK having Joe read to her about the ripper? Wasn't it said that she was terrified of the ripper?


Second, was she called Black Mary because of her temper, and being territorial or what? Other explainations for this nickname besides the above?

[Supe]

Graham,

It was Amelia Farmer who said that Annie Chapman had told her late on the afternoon before her murder "It's no use my giving way. I must pull myself together and go out and get some money, or I shall have no lodgings." Farmer had known her for several years and since it was at the inquest at least it was sworn testimony--for what that is worth.

Paul,

Regardless of what impression the one thread you read gave, MariaG is quite accurate when she speaks of a tendency by some posters to romanticize "Mary Kelly." In contrast, there is a smaller, but quite vocal, gaggle of posters who consider the victims as nothing more than butchered bodies on a morgue table. Neither approach is very seemly or satisfactory.

Personally, I think that much of the interest in Kelly is generated by a search for her origins. Not only is this seemingly insoluble puzzle a magnet for researchers and theorists alike, but it is entirely possible that learning the actual background of "Mary Kelly" would shed light on some of the other imponderables of her murder.

Don.

[paul emmett]

Don. Neither seemly nor satisfactory, of course. And while I'm not saying it's never done, it has been my experience with MJK threads, pre and post crash, that there is very little romanticizing. I was merely using "Slip Up" as the paradigm. Indeed, I haven't even found anywhere near the origin chasing here that I have in some of the published work on MJK, even though I do agree that it might help with some of the other questions.

I guess when I came here today from the Kelly threads, I had been hoping that more people would offer their opinions on some of the many complexities involved.

Paul