Mary Kelly-By Luck, or Design?

[Ben]

I guess that means he took a chance he wouldnt be seen again by Mary Ann still out looking for customers when he is spying then

I guess it would, and that wouldn't constitute remotely unusual behaviour for serial killers or even one-off killers and rapists who return to scenes of their crimes having surveyed them earlier on. It wasn't as if he couldn't abort the mission in the event that he was seen by Mary Cox later in the night, which we know from her evidence that he wasn't.

Best regards,
Ben

[Jon Guy]

its also the murder where he abandons all caution and tempts fate to its extreme?

Hi Mike

That`ll be Hanbury St ?

Hi Chava,

I must say, your Blotchy scenario sounds perfectly credible to me.

Best regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,

With due respect to Chava and yourself.....you have him leaving then returning later after he was seen by Mary Ann Cox quite well? Since she is out until 3am, and Wideawake is seen between 2 and 2:30....I guess that means he took a chance he wouldnt be seen again by Mary Ann still out looking for customers when he is spying then, or later after 3am when he returns yet again and goes in or near to her room for the third time that night?

If Blotchy Face wanted or planned to kill Mary Kelly that night, the encounter with Cox makes his doing so at that time not plausible, and it wouldnt be wise for him to take 2 more chances of being seen later on to achieve his objective. Not only is the ruin in room 13 unlike Jack and all the Canonicals....its also the murder where he abandons all caution and tempts fate to its extreme?

The guy who killed Polly and Annie wanted to be seen only by the women he killed. And he gets away unseen. I frankly dont see him playing chicken with being seen....but then I dont think he wanted to get caught, perhaps you 2 do.

Cheers Ben and Chava

[Ben]

Hi Chava,

I must say, your Blotchy scenario sounds perfectly credible to me.

Best regards,
Ben

[Jane Welland]

Mary's heart

I understand that this was absent from the scene - what do people think about this?

I've always been curious about whether it was in fact missing, or just missed?

And if it was missing, does that possibly indicate a difference between Mary and the others in the mind of the killer?

Can anyone direct me to a thread that discusses this, please, if you know of one?

I'm sure it isn't a new set of questions!

Jane x

Probably no direct connection whatsoever, Mike. If there is, it's almost certainly tangential to the subject matter of this thread - unless those morbid sight-seers you mentioned (amongst others, no doubt, not mentioned by the papers) had a hand in plotting her death in the first place.

Hi Sam,

The fact that three government representatives with no obvious direct connection to either the Ripper cases or this murder investigation visit the courtyard on the Monday or Tuesday morning after the murders is interesting and may hint at agencies that were not involved with the Ripper but were still curious about this murder. Like the Post Office.

As we've discussed before, Ripper crimes were not the only ones of concern to London Policemen that Fall.

Best regards

[Chava]

I have gone back and forward on this for years. On the one hand, Kelly breaks the pattern in age, appearance etc. The kill and what was done after could be considered personal.

On the other, she fits the pattern in that she's an East End prostitute who drinks far too much and was killed in the catchment area so to speak.

These days I believe it was Blotchy Face. And I think he may have picked up on her a little before the night he killed her. He might have had the opportunity if he hadn't been spotted by Cox going into Kelly's room, and if Kelly hadn't commenced to warbling her head off. Might have looked obvious if she stopped mid-note! So he crept out. Waited a while. Then crept back and knocked on her door to be let in. Possibly waiting in the entryway to the alley for a bit and being spotted by Sarah Lewis. Which would mean 2 Millers Court people saw him, but he still managed to get away.

[Jane Welland]

Hi Celesta

I have and may change my mind on this one - I'm sure I will, in fact! I haven't discarded premeditation yet - I am fairly sure I think JTR 'knew' Mary Kelly - although that knowledge could range from knowing her - say for 3 years (!) - to having observed her movements in advance.

Perhaps a better way to put it would be that I think he was aware of her and her location beforehand - that the night of her murder was probably not the first occasion on which they had met. He could easily have known her personally, of course, I wouldn't rule it out.

I don't know - it's just my personal thought, I think, I just don't feel comfortable with the idea that Mary Kelly was a random kill.

Take Care!

[Celesta]

Hiddy-ho Jane,

I used to think he had become aware that she had the flat and that he either came in on her or she let him, after the last client left. It wouldn't take much work on his part. But that idea's been beat pretty hard with a stick! For me, it's more fun to keep flexible about these cases. I know what you mean about the deliberation aspect. I believe a number of people have had that sense as well.

Take care, Ms J. Glad you're here.

[Sam Flynn]

Im curious about this point as well.......what direct connection is there with the Ripper murders and Members of Parliament, the Post Office and the Royal Irish Constabulary?

Probably no direct connection whatsoever, Mike. If there is, it's almost certainly tangential to the subject matter of this thread - unless those morbid sight-seers you mentioned (amongst others, no doubt, not mentioned by the papers) had a hand in plotting her death in the first place.

Im curious about this point as well.......what direct connection is there with the Ripper murders and Members of Parliament, the Post Office and the Royal Irish Constabulary?

Best regards all.

[prowling cat]

Thank you,
Michael, I'll see. Thank you for the summing up of the significant details.
As he's been dead these 100 years (give or take a few decades) I can take my time deciding. See you around,
All the best
Cat

after browsing I have seen that the age factor in Kelly's case is not considered essential by many. Of course, all women in the dark are beautiful, so the same could be said about their age.
I'm afraid I've probably been misguided by the representations given: her mutilations being so great, she is the only victim that has no ecognisable post mortem photo that can stop us from imagining her as we wish, and probably that accounts for the idealisation possible.
Or am I wrong, again?
All the best
Cat

Her age is of concern to me Cat....and welcome.

She was approx half the age of the others, marketable and able to leave her home and get drinks bought for her without us knowing whether she did anything in return for them. Like for example her last night.

Jack the Ripper was known before Mary Kellys death to subdue middle-aged Unfortunate women in dark corners outdoors after midnight, cut their throats, then mutilate their abdomens. Sometimes taking organs, taking at least a partial uterus twice.

He was not known to have gone to women in their 20's rooms, get inside by invitation or break in after 3:00am, attack the women in their bed, and underwear, with a knife, and then slice her up like he is de-engineering a human being.....finally leaving a perfectly good uterus under her head with a breast and a kidney.

The man that killed Mary Kelly was definitely insane and quite lost by the appearance of that room...he didnt know what to do with anything except the heart, when to stop or where to begin. She has wounds on her that can only be his explorations....there is no logical need or answer for her right thigh.

Make up your own mind on these, dont let popular vote make something obvious an anomaly within the Canonical Group less suspicious.

Best regards

[prowling cat]

young age

after browsing I have seen that the age factor in Kelly's case is not considered essential by many. Of course, all women in the dark are beautiful, so the same could be said about their age.
I'm afraid I've probably been misguided by the representations given: her mutilations being so great, she is the only victim that has no ecognisable post mortem photo that can stop us from imagining her as we wish, and probably that accounts for the idealisation possible.
Or am I wrong, again?
All the best
Cat

[halomanuk]

All four are possibilities above and they could have all happened at various stages in the build up to her death.