Mary Kelly-By Luck, or Design?

[Sam Flynn]

I've decided I think there's a strong chance this murder, at least, was premeditated. I think this because -

The Key - the key to Mary Kelly's room has been missing. Yet apparently, by the time she's done in, it's reappeared.

There's no evidence that it had reappeared, Jane. Then as now, certain locks had no need of a key if one could reach through a broken window to "de-catch" the mechanism - as seems to have been the case at 13 Miller's Court.

[Ben]

Hi Richard,

Why do you dismiss Hutchinson's potential involvement on the grounds that you think he's a "decent guy", but don't dismiss Barnett for the same reason?

Thanks in advance,

Ben

[richardnunweek]

Hello Jane,
Nobody has got the real answer regarding kellys locked door in my opinion, my interpretation is, if the door was slammed too, and it was a spring locked device, it could still be opened via the broken window, with the famous window trick, otherwise a key was obviously needed, unless you got in by the window.
As the police despite observing the room for a couple of hours, decided to get McCarthy to force opened the door, it would appear that it appeared to them that the door could not be opened from the broken pane, which would suggest that the lock was not a spring one, and indeed the door was locked with a key and access could not be made without force.
If the latter suggestion is right, then premeditation is very likely.
Which would make suspects like Barnett, Fleming, and a man never discussed, a drover named Lawrence, who reportedly was a frequent visitor.
I cant agree with Hutchinson being involved, Topping was a decent guy wasnt he?...
Regards Richard.

[Jane Welland]

Premeditated

I've decided I think there's a strong chance this murder, at least, was premeditated. I think this because -

The Key - the key to Mary Kelly's room has been missing. Yet apparently, by the time she's done in, it's reappeared. I've seen it suggested on these boards that she found it again - possible. But so is this - the killer of Mary Kelly had the key. He could have let himself in with it. He could have let himself out and locked the door behind him. If he had the key, and she did not, then that would seem to imply quite strongly that, firstly, he knew her; and secondly, the possibility that he planned this in advance by quite some time.

The Clothes - Mary Kelly's clothes were neatly folded on a chair and her boots put away. Mary Kelly had gone to bed. I think it likely that she had gone to bed on her own - folding clothes before sleep is a ritual that is very common, and either conducted alone or in the company of a familiar - intimate even - person. It marks the end of the day.

And if she had gone to bed, and was asleep - the murderer let himself in - with the key, presumably, which takes us back to the beginning of this argument.

It seems likely to me, at least, that the killer of Mary Kelly was known to her - familiar enough to have been quite regularly in her room. You could argue that he was a casual client who saw the key to the room lying around and took it on impulse - but that would suggest an opportunist - and if this was premeditated, he wasn't - he was a planner.

Then, I suppose, you have to ask yourself if there was anyone suspiciously hanging about Millers Court on the night of Mary Kelly's death? Somebody who said they knew her...

Jane x

[claire]

Sorry to jump in late; I've been on me holidees

I have been puzzled by Blotchy hanging round for the sing-song for some time, but I think that it is entirely possible that, like a drunken stop-along guest whose host puts on a few CDs, he could just have fallen asleep. This, however, involves me in a few difficulties: either he woke up, cleared off and Jack got really, really lucky, or he woke up and killed her. This means he either was disgusted with himself and truly lost it, hence the overkill, or he knew her, lost his temper for some reason, and killed her.

Personally, I think he knew her. But then again, I think that Blotchy and Hutch and Fleming are one and the same person.

[Shelley]

Personally i think Mary Kelly's Killer already knew her, it's possible that Kelly's killer let himself in. Maybe he was unaware that Kelly also helped other poor unfortunates warm themselves by her fire and i believe it was mentioned that she allowed some of these unfortunates to stay overnight in her room.

Hi all,

Just to address Chavas post, I think that the Ada Wilson story as is might well be constructed....its possible she was entertaining the man in her home when he decides to rob her, not that he arrived at the door and demanded money. If she was making money in that fashion I would think she might portray the incident as a freak random crime.

He also stabs her in the throat....much more like Martha's murderer in that regard...and she is not believed by many to be a viable Canonical candidate...by me for one anyway.

Best regards Chava, all.

And yes Chava......this is the stuff Summer is made of.

[Jane Welland]

A silly question, probably, but..

Has anybody compared those witness descriptions with any descriptions/images of any of the suspects in the case?

Just curious.

Jane x

[Celesta]

[QUOTE=Chava;91187

But then I read the other eye-witness descriptions, and Ada Wilson's description of the man who attacked her and I thought 'there he is!' Ruddy/sunburnt/blotchy faced. Similar hat. Similar stature. Carrotty/auburn moustache. And I realized that the man who I would put on trial for Kelly's murder has been obvious and in the files all along.[/QUOTE]

Yes, and it seems that hardly anyone ever mentions him. It's puzzled me for a long time.

[Chava]

Hi Mike. Nice weather innit

Actually I do think the above is highly plausible. I agree, she's been stuck at home without too much to do and she's been reduced to hanging around with Maria Hervey. She has no money and she's not inclined to go to work, unlike industrious Mrs Cox. She goes out and finds a punter who'll buy her enough drink to get her plastered. She brings him home along with a pail of beer and then she starts to treat him to a song. I think all this is believable, and it's also believable that poor Mr Blotchy thought he was onto a good thing, only to see her burst into raucous song, at which point he realized she was way too far gone to give him any kind of a good time. So he departs.
Permanently.

I believed this for years. But then I read the other eye-witness descriptions, and Ada Wilson's description of the man who attacked her and I thought 'there he is!' Ruddy/sunburnt/blotchy faced. Similar hat. Similar stature. Carrotty/auburn moustache. And I realized that the man who I would put on trial for Kelly's murder has been obvious and in the files all along. I think he dunnnit. I think it's extremely possible that he noticed her earlier in the day or the week and kept an eye on her a little. However he could have just met her in the pub. The only things that stop him killing her when he went in with her would be the Cox encounter and the fact that she started to sing--which it sounds like she did as she went into the room. So no way to shut her up. He either sticks around for the concert or creeps out and comes back. But he's my boy!

[Celesta]

I just thought he was toying with her, getting his jollies out of listening to her sing, maybe watching her flirt and joke, knowing all along he was going to kill her. I think it's possible he might do something as chilling as that.

I strongly suspect that Blotchy left quickly after Kelly started up her concert and I don't blame him. Cox has seen him close to and can probably identify him. But Kelly is singing and continues to sing while he's with her. Ergo Kelly herself is his alibi. Cox will testify that Kelly was alive and singing for hours after he accompanied her into the room. He can leave and then return in the small hours when Kelly is asleep. Quietly let himself in or get Kelly to open her door. Kill her. Then leave. No one is really looking for him. He's just one of Kelly's punters earlier in the evening...

Chava,

Im not sure if you buy the above really, but consider this.....she has been alone in the room for half a week, she is hammered and that means someone bought her drinks cause she didnt have enough to get smashed...she arrives home with a unknown man and entertains him in her room by singing.

Isnt the most reasonable interpretation of this that Mary invited the man who bought her drinks that night into her room after he had escorted her home, and she sang to him as she missed company and felt she owed the man some hospitality?

When the "house singer" is finished her repertoire...which in this case may have been just one or two songs, the lights go out and the "crowd" goes home.

Probably so did this "crowd" of one.

Cheers Chava, nice to see ya.

[Chava]

I strongly suspect that Blotchy left quickly after Kelly started up her concert and I don't blame him. Cox has seen him close to and can probably identify him. But Kelly is singing and continues to sing while he's with her. Ergo Kelly herself is his alibi. Cox will testify that Kelly was alive and singing for hours after he accompanied her into the room. He can leave and then return in the small hours when Kelly is asleep. Quietly let himself in or get Kelly to open her door. Kill her. Then leave. No one is really looking for him. He's just one of Kelly's punters earlier in the evening...

Hi all,

I think you make a good point Celesta, that Blotchy Face must be a primary suspect that night as he is the only man known to have been in Marys company in her room that night. We only know that he did leave, not when.

Thats why the issue of where she meets him is so fuzzy Brad...because thats long before we have reason to believe she is murdered... when her lights are off and the singing stopped by 1:30am, we dont know if that meant he was still in there.

Heres my contention.....If what transpired between Blotchy and Mary, the singing off and on for over an hour... of the total time of 1 hour and 45 minutes that light was on and noise was heard from inside,....is all that was to transpire, then I dont think he stayed when the lights go out.

If he was a love interest, she wouldnt likely have just sung to him when alone in her room,...(which she did do for roughly 80% of the time behind closed doors before the room goes dark),... if he was a client, same deal,....if she was just being gracious because he walked her home and bought drinks, hes not likely of interest to her romantically.

However, If she warmed up to the idea while he was there, then he may have bedded down with her.

I suspect the serenade ended when her steam for the evening did, she was hammered when she arrived and she had entertained for over an hour and a half,...my bet is she was tired....it was Mayors Day the next day, and we know she was looking forward to seeing it.

Instead, she ended up stopping it.

Best regards Ms C, Brad, Ben, all...

[Celesta]

Although sometimes I feel like Im reading a novel here, I can see why many would prefer one interpretation to another.....potatoe/potatoe.

I shouldnt keep interrupting the creative process like I do so often, ....but what the heck, its whats on paper that is the reality, not whats seemingly sensible to some.
.

Hi Mike,

I understand where you're coming from. We have only certain info to work from, but people need room to utilize that info to hypothesize what it means. Otherwise it's just information. I can see from your statements that you understand this. Sometimes it's true that the simplest explanation turns out to be the most logical one and, in the long one, the answer to the question. When we have a man pushing a woman around, why isn't it reasonable to think that man was the one who actually killed her? If we know a man was seen escorting a woman into an empty flat and that no witness came forward to testify that they saw him leave, why is it unreasonable to hypothesize that this man killed the woman? We don't know that these men did, but sometimes the simplest explanation is the answer.