Mary Kelly-By Luck, or Design?

[Celesta]

[QUOTE=Chava;91187

But then I read the other eye-witness descriptions, and Ada Wilson's description of the man who attacked her and I thought 'there he is!' Ruddy/sunburnt/blotchy faced. Similar hat. Similar stature. Carrotty/auburn moustache. And I realized that the man who I would put on trial for Kelly's murder has been obvious and in the files all along.[/QUOTE]

Yes, and it seems that hardly anyone ever mentions him. It's puzzled me for a long time.

[Jane Welland]

A silly question, probably, but..

Has anybody compared those witness descriptions with any descriptions/images of any of the suspects in the case?

Just curious.

Jane x

[perrymason]

Hi all,

Just to address Chavas post, I think that the Ada Wilson story as is might well be constructed....its possible she was entertaining the man in her home when he decides to rob her, not that he arrived at the door and demanded money. If she was making money in that fashion I would think she might portray the incident as a freak random crime.

He also stabs her in the throat....much more like Martha's murderer in that regard...and she is not believed by many to be a viable Canonical candidate...by me for one anyway.

Best regards Chava, all.

And yes Chava......this is the stuff Summer is made of.

[Shelley]

Personally i think Mary Kelly's Killer already knew her, it's possible that Kelly's killer let himself in. Maybe he was unaware that Kelly also helped other poor unfortunates warm themselves by her fire and i believe it was mentioned that she allowed some of these unfortunates to stay overnight in her room.

[claire]

Sorry to jump in late; I've been on me holidees

I have been puzzled by Blotchy hanging round for the sing-song for some time, but I think that it is entirely possible that, like a drunken stop-along guest whose host puts on a few CDs, he could just have fallen asleep. This, however, involves me in a few difficulties: either he woke up, cleared off and Jack got really, really lucky, or he woke up and killed her. This means he either was disgusted with himself and truly lost it, hence the overkill, or he knew her, lost his temper for some reason, and killed her.

Personally, I think he knew her. But then again, I think that Blotchy and Hutch and Fleming are one and the same person.

[Jane Welland]

Premeditated

I've decided I think there's a strong chance this murder, at least, was premeditated. I think this because -

The Key - the key to Mary Kelly's room has been missing. Yet apparently, by the time she's done in, it's reappeared. I've seen it suggested on these boards that she found it again - possible. But so is this - the killer of Mary Kelly had the key. He could have let himself in with it. He could have let himself out and locked the door behind him. If he had the key, and she did not, then that would seem to imply quite strongly that, firstly, he knew her; and secondly, the possibility that he planned this in advance by quite some time.

The Clothes - Mary Kelly's clothes were neatly folded on a chair and her boots put away. Mary Kelly had gone to bed. I think it likely that she had gone to bed on her own - folding clothes before sleep is a ritual that is very common, and either conducted alone or in the company of a familiar - intimate even - person. It marks the end of the day.

And if she had gone to bed, and was asleep - the murderer let himself in - with the key, presumably, which takes us back to the beginning of this argument.

It seems likely to me, at least, that the killer of Mary Kelly was known to her - familiar enough to have been quite regularly in her room. You could argue that he was a casual client who saw the key to the room lying around and took it on impulse - but that would suggest an opportunist - and if this was premeditated, he wasn't - he was a planner.

Then, I suppose, you have to ask yourself if there was anyone suspiciously hanging about Millers Court on the night of Mary Kelly's death? Somebody who said they knew her...

Jane x

[richardnunweek]

Hello Jane,
Nobody has got the real answer regarding kellys locked door in my opinion, my interpretation is, if the door was slammed too, and it was a spring locked device, it could still be opened via the broken window, with the famous window trick, otherwise a key was obviously needed, unless you got in by the window.
As the police despite observing the room for a couple of hours, decided to get McCarthy to force opened the door, it would appear that it appeared to them that the door could not be opened from the broken pane, which would suggest that the lock was not a spring one, and indeed the door was locked with a key and access could not be made without force.
If the latter suggestion is right, then premeditation is very likely.
Which would make suspects like Barnett, Fleming, and a man never discussed, a drover named Lawrence, who reportedly was a frequent visitor.
I cant agree with Hutchinson being involved, Topping was a decent guy wasnt he?...
Regards Richard.

[Ben]

Hi Richard,

Why do you dismiss Hutchinson's potential involvement on the grounds that you think he's a "decent guy", but don't dismiss Barnett for the same reason?

Thanks in advance,

Ben

[Sam Flynn]

I've decided I think there's a strong chance this murder, at least, was premeditated. I think this because -

The Key - the key to Mary Kelly's room has been missing. Yet apparently, by the time she's done in, it's reappeared.

There's no evidence that it had reappeared, Jane. Then as now, certain locks had no need of a key if one could reach through a broken window to "de-catch" the mechanism - as seems to have been the case at 13 Miller's Court.

[Jane Welland]

Hi Richard

You don't presuppose that Toppy was Hutch do you?

You may believe that, of course - and clearly, you're not alone - but I'm not sure it's proven, exactly.

But in any case - this isn't a thread about that! I think the clothes and the key make a case for an intruder/murderer known to the victim. I'm pretty sure that if we saw a similar case today, the police would think it likely. I mean, missing key, door locked with a victim inside, scene showing signs that the victim had gone to bed.... it all adds up, doesn't it?

Yes, the window was broken - so why then didn't the police at the scene in the morning after Kelly's body was found just open the door through the window?

And if you accept that it is likely the murderer was known to the victim, doesn't it look a bit...well, odd to find that a man was loitering outside Millers Court on the night of the murder, who came forward to say he was there only after somebody said they saw him and who by his own admission knew the deceased?

Richard, I've been through several stages of thought regarding this Hutch/Toppy/Murderer/Witness Hoo-Hah - and I've variously thought his statement to be so ridiculous that it shouldn't have fooled a child of five, let alone a grown policemen or several; that maybe he was in the employ of the press; that maybe he was a witness and that's all he was. But you know, the more I think about it, and the more I learn, the more I entertain grave doubts about Mr Hutchinson - Toppy or no.

Jane x

[richardnunweek]

Hi Ben,
Tonque in cheek Ben, I was just being mischievious about Topping[ you know my view on that], as for Barnett, a doubtful modern day suspect , but not twenty years ago, fleming is a better bet, also as stated who was Lawrence, according to Mrs Hewiit, a neighbour of kelly he very much existed.
I am well known on Casebook as pointing towards Barnett, but although never to be dismissed, others are more intresting in 2009.
But afraid Hutch is not one of them.
Regards Richard.

[Ben]

But afraid Hutch is not one of them

Hutch most assuredly is one of them, Richard.

[Barnaby]

Any estimates of how long Jack spent in the room after murdering Kelly? This duration might give us an idea of how comfortable he was in these surroundings and might suggest someone known to Kelly. A person like Joe Barnett would have a good idea of the probability of being interrupted. In addition, being interrupted would be less of a problem for Barnett (or Flemming). He could claim that he had just discovered the body...This security might allow him to take his time.

[Jane Welland]

Not sure

Hi Barnaby - I don't know if this is possible to know - I wouldn't have thought so - but others may think differently. If you assume that MK is one of JTR's victims, and given the rapidity with which he seems to be able to carry out his mutilations (so far as we know) it may not have been that long. Or on the other hand, I think an indoor location has to be viewed differently to outside kill spots - perhaps, if he did feel comfortable there, he took his time. I personally think that the extent of his 'work' on MK probably indicates that he was comfortable there, as does the fact that he was there in the first place - very risky, killing indoors, in a crowded tenement - he could very easily have been discovered.

Richard - I was just thinking about Toppy - decent - chap - and I decided it didn't necessarily mean that he wasn't an evil killer as well. JTR was never caught, as we all know - guess he was quite good at his murdering pastime. Such a person may well have able to fool others - maybe he carried on his trade and his life as normal, and nobody ever suspected. Maybe, after MK, he didn't stop at all, but just changed his MO - how would we know?


Jane x

[Fisherman]

Jane Welland writes:

"doesn't it look a bit...well, odd to find that a man was loitering outside Millers Court on the night of the murder, who came forward to say he was there only after somebody said they saw him and who by his own admission knew the deceased?"

Just to clarify things, Jane, it should be pointed out that Lewis never specifically pointed Hutchinson out, and so nobody said that they saw Hutchinson at the scene.
Besides, whichever way we turn it, we are faced with an oddity or two - despite the fact that we are aware of killers who have contacted the police, it remains the less credible thing to do statistically.

The best,
Fisherman