Mary Kelly-By Luck, or Design?

[Celesta]

Hiddy-ho Jane,

I used to think he had become aware that she had the flat and that he either came in on her or she let him, after the last client left. It wouldn't take much work on his part. But that idea's been beat pretty hard with a stick! For me, it's more fun to keep flexible about these cases. I know what you mean about the deliberation aspect. I believe a number of people have had that sense as well.

Take care, Ms J. Glad you're here.

[Jane Welland]

Hi Celesta

I have and may change my mind on this one - I'm sure I will, in fact! I haven't discarded premeditation yet - I am fairly sure I think JTR 'knew' Mary Kelly - although that knowledge could range from knowing her - say for 3 years (!) - to having observed her movements in advance.

Perhaps a better way to put it would be that I think he was aware of her and her location beforehand - that the night of her murder was probably not the first occasion on which they had met. He could easily have known her personally, of course, I wouldn't rule it out.

I don't know - it's just my personal thought, I think, I just don't feel comfortable with the idea that Mary Kelly was a random kill.

Take Care!

[Chava]

I have gone back and forward on this for years. On the one hand, Kelly breaks the pattern in age, appearance etc. The kill and what was done after could be considered personal.

On the other, she fits the pattern in that she's an East End prostitute who drinks far too much and was killed in the catchment area so to speak.

These days I believe it was Blotchy Face. And I think he may have picked up on her a little before the night he killed her. He might have had the opportunity if he hadn't been spotted by Cox going into Kelly's room, and if Kelly hadn't commenced to warbling her head off. Might have looked obvious if she stopped mid-note! So he crept out. Waited a while. Then crept back and knocked on her door to be let in. Possibly waiting in the entryway to the alley for a bit and being spotted by Sarah Lewis. Which would mean 2 Millers Court people saw him, but he still managed to get away.

[perrymason]

Probably no direct connection whatsoever, Mike. If there is, it's almost certainly tangential to the subject matter of this thread - unless those morbid sight-seers you mentioned (amongst others, no doubt, not mentioned by the papers) had a hand in plotting her death in the first place.

Hi Sam,

The fact that three government representatives with no obvious direct connection to either the Ripper cases or this murder investigation visit the courtyard on the Monday or Tuesday morning after the murders is interesting and may hint at agencies that were not involved with the Ripper but were still curious about this murder. Like the Post Office.

As we've discussed before, Ripper crimes were not the only ones of concern to London Policemen that Fall.

Best regards

[Jane Welland]

Mary's heart

I understand that this was absent from the scene - what do people think about this?

I've always been curious about whether it was in fact missing, or just missed?

And if it was missing, does that possibly indicate a difference between Mary and the others in the mind of the killer?

Can anyone direct me to a thread that discusses this, please, if you know of one?

I'm sure it isn't a new set of questions!

Jane x

[Ben]

Hi Chava,

I must say, your Blotchy scenario sounds perfectly credible to me.

Best regards,
Ben

[perrymason]

Hi Chava,

I must say, your Blotchy scenario sounds perfectly credible to me.

Best regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,

With due respect to Chava and yourself.....you have him leaving then returning later after he was seen by Mary Ann Cox quite well? Since she is out until 3am, and Wideawake is seen between 2 and 2:30....I guess that means he took a chance he wouldnt be seen again by Mary Ann still out looking for customers when he is spying then, or later after 3am when he returns yet again and goes in or near to her room for the third time that night?

If Blotchy Face wanted or planned to kill Mary Kelly that night, the encounter with Cox makes his doing so at that time not plausible, and it wouldnt be wise for him to take 2 more chances of being seen later on to achieve his objective. Not only is the ruin in room 13 unlike Jack and all the Canonicals....its also the murder where he abandons all caution and tempts fate to its extreme?

The guy who killed Polly and Annie wanted to be seen only by the women he killed. And he gets away unseen. I frankly dont see him playing chicken with being seen....but then I dont think he wanted to get caught, perhaps you 2 do.

Cheers Ben and Chava

[Jon Guy]

its also the murder where he abandons all caution and tempts fate to its extreme?

Hi Mike

That`ll be Hanbury St ?

[Ben]

I guess that means he took a chance he wouldnt be seen again by Mary Ann still out looking for customers when he is spying then

I guess it would, and that wouldn't constitute remotely unusual behaviour for serial killers or even one-off killers and rapists who return to scenes of their crimes having surveyed them earlier on. It wasn't as if he couldn't abort the mission in the event that he was seen by Mary Cox later in the night, which we know from her evidence that he wasn't.

Best regards,
Ben

[perrymason]

Hi Mike

That`ll be Hanbury St ?

Hi Jon,

Do you say that because of the presence of some very early daylight, or the windows that faced the backyard?

In context, we have no evidence the killer surveyed the scene multiple times in one night, as has been suggested.

Best regards

[perrymason]

I guess it would, and that wouldn't constitute remotely unusual behaviour for serial killers or even one-off killers and rapists who return to scenes of their crimes having surveyed them earlier on. It wasn't as if he couldn't abort the mission in the event that he was seen by Mary Cox later in the night, which we know from her evidence that he wasn't.

Best regards,
Ben

But it would contrast starkly with a man the paper and some investigators referred to as a phantom or a ghost....part of their problem was in fact the number of sightings ....that were very few. I dont think risking 3 sightings in one night is in keeping with that Ben, particularly since a court resident saw his face on the first one.

Best regards Ben

[Ben]

But it would contrast starkly with a man the paper and some investigators referred to as a phantom or a ghost....part of their problem was in fact the number of sightings ....that were very few. I dont think risking 3 sightings in one night is in keeping with that Ben,

I think it's the "phantom/ghost" image that needs revising, as opposed to the perfectly plausible suggestion that he committed murder despite his face having been seen, Mike. Lawende's man was almost certainly the ripper, and he allowed his mug to be seen by three witnesses at relatively close quarters.

All the best,
Ben

[perrymason]

I think it's the "phantom/ghost" image that needs revising, as opposed to the perfectly plausible suggestion that he committed murder despite his face having been seen, Mike. Lawende's man was almost certainly the ripper, and he allowed his mug to be seen by three witnesses at relatively close quarters.

All the best,
Ben

Thats true on Eddowes Ben, but I believe the name was well earned. How many sightings of a face do we have for men who by the timing and circumstances were seen with the victim before their death? One. Blotchy. How many do we have of a man leaving the scene? None. Lawende said himself less than 2 weeks later he did not get a good look at the man...and he identified Kates clothes, not sailor mans face.

Thats seems to me like he protected himself from being overly exposed....like 3 visits to a soon to be crime scene after having his face seen by a witness with the victim that same night would be. It would be beyond reason to suggest he didnt actively seek to minimize his exposure to witnesses....after Polly that is.

Best regards Ben.

[Jane Welland]

Just a thought..

Reading this I just wondered whether the murderer might have taken a greater risk as time went on and he wasn't caught?

Maybe there might be a connection somewhere between greater risk-taking and the fact that to our current knowledge, Mary Kelly was the last?

Jane x

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

How many sightings of a face do we have for men who by the timing and circumstances were seen with the victim before their death? One. Blotchy

Two - Lawende's man.

Three - Schwartz men.

Relative to the number of victims, that's a fair number, and very much at odds with the perception of the killer as some sort of invisible phantom. We don't know how often the killer was seen leaving the scene - probably a fair few times. He just wouldn't have been noticed, since a man leaving the court around the time of the morning market hustle and bustle wasn't likely to be remarked upon.

Best regards,
Ben