the locked door

[claire]

Quick question for Bob (and thanks for your input, much appreciated)...perhaps it wasn't evident from a glance what sort of lock it was; however, wouldn't Mr McCarthy have known what sort of lock it was, or did tenants have responsibility for the locks? Just wondering about his 'movie-moment' with breaking down the door....Thanks for any light you may be able to shed.

[perrymason]

This is dealt with quite extensively in my book 'From Hell'.

To summarise, it wasn't easy to open the door through the broken window, in fact it was quite difficult and dangerous.

Circumstances lead me to believe that when leaving the room Kelly left the lock on the latch, ie unlocked.

Hi Bob,

I think there may be some confusion about whether a spring latch would allow the room to lock in an "open" or "closed" position. Weve had many discussions regarding this access issue. To restrict the door from locking when she leaves the room, she would leave the spring latch "on", ....If the latch is on....the door will not lock. If its left off, the door will lock. The natural position if Mary was coming and going from the room during the day would likely have been "on".

I think that as of perhaps November 3 or 4th Mary may well have adopted the "off the latch" policy, as she is entering the room alone now when arriving home... without Barnett or Maria living with her. On this particular night I think you may well have struck upon what Blotchy Face is doing with Mary. There are no accounts of Mary entertaining clients in her room after November 1st. Since Barnett objected to her earning a living that way, she likely never had a client in that room when he lived there....as she moved in with Barnett.

I believe Blotchy is rewarded with song for escorting Mary to her door and making sure she gets into the room safely....as on that night, she apparently left the spring latch "on" when she went out....because according to Mary Ann, Blotchy pushes the door open.

All the best Bob

[Jeff Leahy]

Really? I can find know mention of Blotchy Face kicking or opening the Door.

A to Z: At 11.45 Mary Ann Cox saw her return home in the company of a stout, shabby, blotchy-faced man in his thirties with a carroty moustache and billy **** hat. He carried a quart pail of beer. Kelly was wearing a linsey frock and a red knitted crossover shawl. She was drunk and told Mrs Cox she was going to sing.. Between midnight and 1 am. Several witnesses heard her singing ‘Only a violet I plucked from my mothers grave’ in her room.

No mention of Blotchy opening the door?

All the best

Pirate

PS There is an account in A to Z of Mrs Cox recollections by her niece via Daniel Farson. But still no mention of door?

PS PS I dont remember the A to Z containing any swear words..its just a type of HAT..

[Jane Welland]

Hi all

I've got a lock like that on the door of my flat - I think they were and are still, pretty common. My flat was built in the 1850's - who can say if the lock has ever been changed - quite possibly not!

It does what is mentioned above, locks when you shut it - unless you press the bolt hold button which prevents it from doing so.

As Kelly had lost her key, this seems to me to be what she would be most likely to do. Reaching in through the window could not have been easy, I don't imagine (not an option for me, in any case) not to mention hazardous.

None of which explains how whoever killed her got in to her room, since surely under normal circumstances she would have shut the door from the inside once in? Either she invited the killer in herself, was so drunk she forgot to shut the door, or the killer had the missing key and let himself in.

Best to all

Jane x

[perrymason]

I've got a lock like that on the door of my flat - I think they were and are still, pretty common. My flat was built in the 1850's - who can say if the lock has ever been changed - quite possibly not!

It does what is mentioned above, locks when you shut it - unless you press the bolt hold button which prevents it from doing so.

As Kelly had lost her key, this seems to me to be what she would be most likely to do. Reaching in through the window could not have been easy, I don't imagine (not an option for me, in any case) not to mention hazardous.

None of which explains how whoever killed her got in to her room, since surely under normal circumstances she would have shut the door from the inside once in? Either she invited the killer in herself, was so drunk she forgot to shut the door, or the killer had the missing key and let himself in.

Best to all

Jane x

Thanks for confirming my previous post by your comments above Jane.

I think this is only a really tricky issue when only Mary is there to reach in through the window. She never lived there alone before. And she is probably less likely to want to reach through broken glass than Barnett would be.

Thats where the Blotchy Faced escort home that gets song instead of "dance" comes in, I think. She left it "on" the latch to avoid reaching in through the window, so anyone could have entered the room while she was gone. She likely buttered up BF for the beer and the escort, and sang her way out of some sex. She might have got him to do this when he hears she lives alone.

Did she let Blotchy out and go to sleep around 1:30am is the "key" to this investigation......cause if she did, my bet is she lay down in a locked room. Which means she opened the door and let him in....or he lets himself in....if the latch was on, by using the pane method.

Something its unreasonable a killer would see for the first time that night as an opportunity from a window with closed curtains and darkness inside.

I think if she slept, she locked, and if she locked, then we have her letting him in, or someone close enough to her lets himself in.....someone who knows that method before going to the room.

All the best Jane

[Jeff Leahy]

....because according to Mary Ann, Blotchy pushes the door open.

Sorry Michael I still cant find a source for this comment. Have I missed something?

Pirate

PS I've just noticed the other thread, which mentions BF closing the door

[perrymason]

Sorry Michael I still cant find a source for this comment. Have I missed something?

Pirate

PS I've just noticed the other thread, which mentions BF closing the door

My apologies Pirate for forgetting to address you. Its a comment from a press account which has a fairly full interview with Mary Ann, but I dont recall which offhand.

I will check to see if I can pin it down for you.

Best regards

[perrymason]

Heres one piece from Mary Ann Cox in the Illustrated Police News, November 17th, that says he [Blotchy] banged the door....

"He had a round black billy-**** hat on. He had a blotchy face, and a full, carrotty moustache. The chin was bare. I followed them up into the court, and said, "Good nigh, Mary." She never turned round, and he banged the door. He had nothing but a quart can of beer in his hand. She said "Goodnight, I'm going to have a song." Then the door was shut."

There are others, but also some that say Mary closed the door, and some that say nothing about the entrance itself.

If the latch was "on", pushing on the door would be enough to open it, maybe Blotchy pushed it open for Mary to walk through.

Cheers

[Jane Welland]

Hi Mike

Did she let Blotchy out and go to sleep around 1:30am is the "key" to this investigation......cause if she did, my bet is she lay down in a locked room. Which means she opened the door and let him in....or he lets himself in....if the latch was on, by using the pane method.

Something its unreasonable a killer would see for the first time that night as an opportunity from a window with closed curtains and darkness inside.

I think if she slept, she locked, and if she locked, then we have her letting him in, or someone close enough to her lets himself in.....someone who knows that method before going to the room.

All the best Jane

I do think she probably went to sleep - I don't think she let the killer in, necessarily, but let's say she did - then that suggests to me that she certainly knew him and trusted him - she must certainly have been aware of the situation in Whitechapel and known that she was vulnerable - I don't think she'd have been taking the sort of risk that involved letting strangers into her room.

Yes, she was a prostitute - but she could just as easily have taken a client into an alley, back yard or dark doorway for a 'knee-trembler' as the next girl.I would suggest that given the circumstances, she knew Blotchy.

If the killer let himself in via the window, then he had almost certainly been there before, observed the situation and planned on how he would do it. I agree with you that to do such a thing in a purely opportunistic fashion is unlikely - I think it would have been very difficult to achieve without prior knowledge - and he would have made some noise as well - extremely risky when he was in a densely populated tenement in the dark.

Thirdly, if the killer let himself in with the key, then again, he had been there before, almost certainly, and in addition had very likely planned his actions.

Any way you turn it, if Kelly had gone to bed when she was murdered, she is very likely to have known her killer.

I think the circumstances - dead in her room - tend to point quite strongly in that direction anyway - most people killed in their own homes are murdered by people they know, aren't they? And again, I don't see why she would have taken a strange man back to her room when she was a prostitute living and working in an area frequented by a serial killer - she may have been drunk that night, but it doesn't mean she was stupid.

Best regards, Mike

Jane x

[Chava]

According to the inquest testimony from Cox, 'Mary Jane turned round and banged the door'. That, to me, suggests that the lock was on the sneck when she went out and she forgot when she closed the door. Is there anyone else on the board who has or had this kind of lock? You could pull the lock back and put it on the sneck so that it won't catch when you close the door. But if you do that, the door does bang when closed. If you allow the lock to engage, the door doesn't bang unless you really give it a clout. Because the round part of the lock mechanism hits the part of the lock that's in the lintel and slows the door down enough so that it doesn't make all that much noise.

(I hope I'm making myself clear! I don't know how else to describe this kind of lock.)

[Jeff Leahy]

"He had a round black billy-**** hat on. He had a blotchy face, and a full, carrotty moustache. The chin was bare. I followed them up into the court, and said, "Good nigh, Mary." She never turned round, and he banged the door. He had nothing but a quart can of beer in his hand. She said "Goodnight, I'm going to have a song." Then the door was shut."

There are others, but also some that say Mary closed the door, and some that say nothing about the entrance itself.

If the latch was "on", pushing on the door would be enough to open it, maybe Blotchy pushed it open for Mary to walk through.

Cheers

Hi Michael Many thanks for your source. Perhaps the door banged because the latch had been put on. I'm sure blotchy had more on his mind than simply singing a song.

And as Bob pointed out in an earlier post, I'm not convinced putting your hand through the window would have been a simple every day solution.

My guess would be the lock would only be useful when conducting business.

Many thanks for your usual kind help

Pirate

[mike74]

How did the killer get out of the room as the door was locked when the police arrived?

[Jane Welland]

Hi Mike74

Well, if the lock was like mine and locked automatically when you shut it, then I guess he just shut the door on the way out?

Best regards

Jane x

[perrymason]

How did the killer get out of the room as the door was locked when the police arrived?

Hi Mike,

First thanks for the recent posts on this issue, and to answer your question Mike, if the killer knew or was familiar with a spring latch as Jane described....and yes, it would bang shut if the latch was on Chava....then all he has to do is make sure the latch is still on when he leaves. If he releases it so its locked while he is in there, he just needs to re-latch it.

Its not really a "locked room mystery" as it is sometimes presented.

I agree with your summary fully Jane....if she let Blocthy out and slept from just before 1:30am, then the odds are in favour of a killer who knew the room, and likely Mary.

This is the ONLY Canonical that has evidence that suggests the killer knew the victim....hence, a suspect inclusion. 4 out of 5 Canonicals say he killed strangers.

All the best

[perrymason]

The escalated mutilation that is present in room 13 is not a logical progression from previous versions of a Jack kill....in each successive previous case the escalation involves more specific acts, Polly is cut open....Annie is cut open and has abdominal organs taken from the scene, Kate is cut open, has abdominal organs taken from the scene and facial cuts....Mary is emptied, has no abdominal organs taken from the scene despite having them all excised from her, and she has her thighs stripped of flesh, one completely, her face eradicated, and organs that were excised placed around her seemingly without purpose or functional concerns.

Its not just more mutilation cause he is indoors, its new mutilation that seemingly offers him nothing in return except the preforming of the acts themselves.

I think Jack before Mary was a target kind of guy...target victims, target throat, target abdomen and whats inside.

I only added this bit to explain part of my last post.

Best regards.