the locked door

[babybird67]

once again advance apologies if anyone has already started a thread on this.

I'm wondering about the significance of the locked door when they found MJK.

I understand the key had been lost some time before, was it during an argument between Mary and Joe Barnett?

It just seems odd to me that the killer would have bothered reaching in through the broken window and locking the door from the inside...why would he stop to do this, which might delay his escape from the scene of the crime and increase his chances of being spotted, when he could have just shut the door on his way out?

Would it be to try to incriminate someone who perhaps might have had the key, eg Joe Barnett (might have had one/found the original) or McCarthy?

If it was a act designed to mislead then might we assume the killer knew about who might have a key?

thinking out loud..contributions welcomed...tell me if i am being blatantly stupid i won't take offence

[kensei]

No no, not a stupid question at all. There are so many data points and pieces of minutae in the Ripper case, no one can be expected to keep track of them all. I might not even be correct in this point: I was of the impression that MJK's door was of a type that would lock automatically each time it closed. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. This was not a problem for Mary and Joe because their being irresponsible in losing the key had coincided with their being irresponsible and breaking the window, so all they had to do to get in was reach in through the broken pane. I believe the Ripper walked in with Mary as a client. When he left, he simply left, without a single thought about the door as it locked behind him.

[babybird67]

hi kensei

ahhh...could be one of those sorts of locks i didnt think of that. Thanks!

[Ben]

Hi guys,

If the spring lock was left on the latch, either through habit or as a result of drunken absent-mindedness on Kelly's part, the killer could have gained entry by pushing the door open. No need for any window tricks at all. Certainly, there was no evidence of the latter expedient when she returned home with Blotchy Chops.

Best regards,
Ben

[babybird67]

yes Ben

good point.

thanks.

[IchabodCrane]

The lock was on the near side of the door, towards the window, no further than a foot from the window. It must have been of a kind that locks automatically when you close the door, but cannot be opened anymore from the inside if locked with a key from the outside (two stages of locking). Otherwise the failure of the police to open the door after the window frame was already removed would be inexplicable.

[CountessHappyBunny]

more lock questions

Hiya,
i read that the spring-lock was the kind that locks automatically, so the fact of the door being locked from the inside isn't a huge mystery.
also, it seems possible the police simply didn't realize they could open the door by reaching through the window, and that's why they busted the door open.
from what I understand (please correct me if I'm wrong) the key had been lost for some time, but the argument where the window was broken didn't happen until days AFTER that.
my question is - how did joe and mary get in and out of the room before the window was broken? Did windows slide open back then? is there some way to keep a spring lock from locking automatically?
as always, sorry if this has already been answered in twelve other strings. thanks for any help with this!

[jason_c]

I wouldnt be surprised if the window was intentionally broken at the same time the key was lost. Of all the window panes to be broken it just happens to be a pane the gives Kelly and Barnett access to the door lock.

[Fisherman]

Jason C writes:

"I wouldnt be surprised if the window was intentionally broken at the same time the key was lost. Of all the window panes to be broken it just happens to be a pane the gives Kelly and Barnett access to the door lock."

TWO panes in the same window frame were broken, Jason. And in the wet and chilly month of November, most people would opt for no broken panes at all, I believe.

The best,
Fisherman

[Bob Hinton]

The Missing Key Mystery

This is dealt with quite extensively in my book 'From Hell'.

To summarise, it wasn't easy to open the door through the broken window, in fact it was quite difficult and dangerous.

Circumstances lead me to believe that when leaving the room Kelly left the lock on the latch, ie unlocked.

[babybird67]

thanks Bob

I doubt there was very much in the room that would tempt anyone inside to steal anything, despite it being left on the latch.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I must agree with Bob, when he says, the door was left on the latch , when she was out, and i to some degree also about the danger element, of reaching through the broken pane.
However that option was clearly used on occassions, as Barnett mentions.
According to Mrs Cox, she followed Kelly and Blotchy into the court from Dorset street, and makes no mention of any window trick, infact she apperas to have gone straight in her door.
According to her neice[ Coxs] her aunt actually was waiting at her door in the court, when kelly arrived down the passage, with 'The toff' in a fine hat , but not silk.
If there is one witness in the Millers court affair , that would be dubious, Mrs Cox would be the one...
What ever means of entry was used for room 13, it would be a sure bet that the door was locked whilst the occupants/occupant were inside, especially in Kellys case, when alone at night.
It still remains a mystery, why the door was forced, surely the police could see the spring lock a foot away from the window, and could figure out how to reach it.?
Regards Richard.

[Bob Hinton]

The Lock

In answer to Richards point about the police seeing it was a spring lock.

Not really, the only difference between a spring lock and an ordinary rim lock is the small bolt hold button. I did post photographs of the type of lock I believed it to be on the boards many years ago. I still have it up in the attic to my office.

I explored the myth about how easy it was to open the door my reaching in through the window and easy it isn't. I built a mock up of the corner of the room.

The only way it was at all possible was to stand on the ledge of the first window, hold on to the down pipe with your right hand and reach in through the broken pane with your left. This means of course that you are up to your armpit in broken glass, and if you slip you'll find out just how easy it is to remove an arm!

[Robert]

Hi Bob

I liked your account of the door and key in your book, but on this particular point : why did Abberline say that it was easy to open the door via the window?

[CountessHappyBunny]

hey all - thanks for the input - it's appreciated!