Kelly, mortuary sketches

[cappuccina]

I think it is mentioned in The Concise Enclopedia of Crime and Criminals, from 1961...

Also, what I remember is that her funeral was delayed a bit so she could be buried properly; she was Catholic I believe...At the time, this would have involved piecing the body back together as best as possible and at least wrapping it in a shroud if clothing could not be put on it...

At the inquest, I believe the jury was allowed to view her body...I cannot imagine that they did not try to sew it partly back together for that...

[cappuccina]

I remember reading the same thing, Kat....I'll see what I can find...

[KatBradshaw]

Can someone clarify something for me? I am sure I read somewhere that the coronor and his team had stitched Mary back together as best they could. Is this right? I honestly can't remember where I read that. If it is true maybe a skectch or photos were made of this to try and aid or back up identification. Of course if I am mistaken then it won't.

[Malcolm X]

that is indeed true, all that work for one person too.

[Sam Flynn]

just you look at those Egyptian pyramids..........increadible.

Indeed, Mal - probably the most incredibly inefficient method of burial ever devised

[Malcolm X]

there is nothing out there on the web, it's just a massive accumulation of data that's repeated almost to infinity, it has no depth, you see exactly the same photos/ articles all over the web, repeated time and time again..it's like the same flat plane, laid on top of another and another etc........it's wide but only puddle deep.

i did loads of research in tracing SWEENEY TODD ``fact or fiction`` i was able to proove that Peter Haining's book was rubbish, but you cant search for anything online, all you'll get is 50 pages of ``Johnny Depp's``movie and the Sondheim play.

you have to do leg work, i sussed it out by looking through newspaper microfilms for the year 1800 to late 1802, at Christchurch library and then by tracing all executed criminals in this period ...and finally a list of who owned all the shops in FLEET ST, around St Dunstans church, from 1765 to 1801..... the internet searches revealed nothing but took me months, but in comparison; going to a very large library only 2 days.............. for such an infamous killer of folklore/legend, i found nothing and he would've definitely have been mentioned in the Newgate Calendar, i had a team of 3 bored librarians helping me.... they were hanging around in there doing nothing, i went over and chatted them up and they were only too willing to help me; for about 3 hours.

and by God you need their help, they know exactly where to look in the archieves.

unless destroyed in WW2 or thrown out by police clerks/ document controllers etc, this stuff will be still around; but i think hunting for it via a large library or a hall of records will be a waste of time, because common sense tells me that many great Ripperologists have already done so many years ago, SWEENEY TODD was different, because it was only me that was interested.


Public Record Office at Ruskin Avenue, Kew. this is where it's all kept.

[Malcolm X]

You figure? 32 years ago Stephen Knight's book was a bestseller. You've got 11 to go after that until the centenary. JTR is big business. Has been since the mid 70's thanks to Knight. I don't credit the little old lady story. It's possible, not plausible. But not likely. H'm, using my favorite words. Better stop now.

You started this thread, you lucky Provence dweller you. You must have had some idea that mortuary sketches existed? Or did you just throw this into the pot? French, Italian, it's all good. The food, I mean.

no i just saw that article on the web and posted up, thinking someone here might be interested, i'm always searching google for anything related to the Ripper, i just surf in a mindless trance, the internet does that to you.......time just shoots by, i sit here for hours surfing away........especially google photos

[Nothing to see]

no, some dear old lady might have these photos up in her attic, she wont know squat what they are, because they once belonged to her husband that died 30 years ago, just some gory photos/ scruffy looking illustrations.......the name MARY KELLY wont mean anything to her, just like 1/2 the population of the U.K not knowing the names of the Royal Family.

they might be in a cardboard box covered in cobwebs, that she's never opened... you find all sorts of stuff like this in peoples' attics

You figure? 32 years ago Stephen Knight's book was a bestseller. You've got 11 to go after that until the centenary. JTR is big business. Has been since the mid 70's thanks to Knight. I don't credit the little old lady story. It's possible, not plausible. But not likely. H'm, using my favorite words. Better stop now.

You started this thread, you lucky Provence dweller you. You must have had some idea that mortuary sketches existed? Or did you just throw this into the pot? French, Italian, it's all good. The food, I mean.

[Malcolm X]

Good point. What is the point to all of this? There were no mortuary sketches made of MJK. I don't believe anyone would sit on a gold mine like that and not release it. And no, I don't think you wouldn't know what you had. Dead woman, h'mm London 1888. I know, I'll write a diary. I'll call it the Maybrick..no. The moneypit..no. The McNaughton Memor...No. Already been used.

no not at all, some dear old lady might have these photos up in her attic, she wont know squat what they are, because they once belonged to her husband that died 30 years ago, just some gory photos/ scruffy looking illustrations.......the name MARY KELLY wont mean anything to her, just like 1/2 the population of the U.K not knowing the names of the Royal Family.

they might be in a cardboard box covered in cobwebs, that she's never opened, just some research that he husband was doing, she keeps it all for sentimental value only, it'll be in an old tiny cottage; somewhere in Cornwall or Dorset... you find all sorts of stuff like this in peoples' attics.

[Malcolm X]

Picture writing of a hand with ridge patterns was discovered in Nova Scotia. In ancient Babylon, fingerprints were used on clay tablets for business transactions. In ancient China, thumb prints were found on clay seals.
Chinese Clay Seal

In 14th century Persia, various official government papers had fingerprints (impressions), and one government official, a doctor, observed that no two fingerprints were exactly alike.

so there you go, but not fully functional in crime detection till the 1930's, technology not good enough i suppose..... but i bet this technology was sussed out hundreds of years ago, but lost to history, these early civilisations were pretty smart.

just you look at those Egyptian pyramids..........increadible.

[Nothing to see]

Good point. What is the point to all of this? There were no mortuary sketches made of MJK. I don't believe anyone would sit on a gold mine like that and not release it. And no, I don't think you wouldn't know what you had. Dead woman, h'mm London 1888. I know, I'll write a diary. I'll call it the Maybrick..no. The moneypit..no. The McNaughton Memor...No. Already been used.

[Khanada]

No probs with that.
Think you've missed the point.Overall.
Kindly do not ask me to repeat myself.Reread.
No offence meant,really,
Dave.

If this is in response to my post above, I don't see how I could possibly have missed any point you tried to make, beyond fingerprinting being around for thousands of years, which is only possible if you believe obscure Bible references, which I do not. Then again, I don't actually believe you have a point. Even if you do, it's not very interesting to me.

In any case, it wasn't for you. Dates were asked for by another party, and dates I located. End of list, chuck, but have a lovely evening.

[Mr.Hyde]

Mr.Hyde

You either arent listening...or you believe what you believe anyway Dave. Whether anyone recognized fingerprints were unique thousands of year before these cases or not, who cares, although Im sure you do at this point...but they were NOT, to a certainty of 100%, usable in English court until the early 1900's.

Therefore, they had NO VALUE in a criminal investigation in England in 1888. Thats a clear as I can make it.

Sorry for the tone, but Im sure if you had to tell someone the same thing 4 or 5 times too, in order for them to have information that it appears they do not have...youd get riled a bit too.

Cheers.

Never disputed that.Apologize if I have not made things transparent enough.
Suggest rereading and telling me exactly where I have gone wrong.May prevent me from making another post!

[Mr.Hyde]

No probs with that.
Think you've missed the point.Overall.
Kindly do not ask me to repeat myself.Reread.
No offence meant,really,
Dave.

[Khanada]

I felt 1903 was right but 1905 is just fine... Did I guess right about the Crime Lab dates for Scotland Yard do you know?

Per my notes from Evans & Rumbelow, Scotland Yard did not have a Fingerprint Bureau until 1901, and got a Crime Lab in the 1930's.

Per MEPO's history webpages, "Metropolitan Police Forensic Laboratory opened." in 1935.

And for 1901 MEPO's history pages list, "The Fingerprint Bureau commences operation after the findings of the Belper Report. Anthropometric measurements under the Bertillon system are still used, but begin to decline in importance."

MEPO's Fingerprint Bureau page states...

The study of the application of fingerprints for useful purposes appears to have started in the latter part of the 17th century when, in 1684, the anatomist Doctor Nehemiah Grew published a paper on the subject which he illustrated with drawings of various fingerprint patterns. About the same period, in Italy, Professor Malpighi was investigating the function of the skin.

It was in 1860 that the use of fingerprints as a reliable means of individual identification really started. Sir William Herschel, an administrator in the province of Bengal, India, appreciated the unique nature of fingerprints and established the principle of their persistence. Fingerprints are formed in full detail before birth and remain unchanged throughout life unless they are affected by a deep seated injury. A method of classifying fingerprints and research in this field was initiated by Sir Francis Galton and Henry Faulds independently at the end of the 19th century.

http://www.met.police.uk/history/fingerprints.htm