Kelly, mortuary sketches

[Malcolm X]

i quote

``Mary Jane Kelly’s is a case in point. As Eastender Arthur Harding recalls in a recording: “...poor old Mary Kelly; she’d take them up to her room. She had a room in Dorset Street; she probably paid about two bob a week. I think she did pay; a shilling a night she paid. But, see, she hadn’t paid her rent, so poor cow she was, you know what I mean, she was right down to her bottom, nothing.” An exceptionally pretty 25-year-old, Mary was discovered in her bed, disembowelled. The post-mortem photograph, on display behind closed doors, makes for sobering viewing, as do the mortuary sketches.``

what mortuary sketches? .... there are none, or are there!

[George Hutchinson]

Where's the quote from?

If it's post-1966, it's probably a muddle of confusion and referring to the CE sketch. I've never heard of a mortuary sketch of MJK.

PHILIP

[Malcolm X]

http://www.newcriminologist.com/article.asp?cid=171&nid=2082

i found that while searching Autopsy photos on the web.... i've been searching like crazy all afternoon/ evening for any photos of Kelly..........found nothing at all

i expect he means Eddowes

[Malcolm X]

the web is ok, but everything you find is either from this website or other ones, no point posting anything up, because it's all been seen before.... mind you, i did see quite a few porn images, i enjoyed that!

more photos definitely exist, i cant imagine only 2 photos been taken; there must be mortuary photos too..these will be hidden away in some dark and dustly location anywhere in the u.k.

i think searching the web like this is one of the most frustrating things to do, i went through hundreds of photo pages on Google... over about 6 hours

[Mr.Hyde]

http://www.met.police.uk/history/ripper.htm

Doubt there is one.Anyone checked out MEPO 31140 and MEPO 3/3153 in above?Surmise someone has.
The CE sketch sometimes confused with MK.

[Malcolm X]

this is where they're kept:-

Public Record Office at Ruskin Avenue, Kew.

no point trying to do this online, you'd have to visit and stay there all day...i expect you'd find nothing, simply because if there was anything revealing it would already be online, especially photos, as said; the best stuff was probably stolen years ago, lost or destroyed

[perrymason]

What I found interesting about that quote is that this Arthur fellow essentially talks only about Marys economic woes. The bare facts about why she is famous are summarized after.. incorrectly.

He even seems a bit titillated by her predicament.

Id say, no mortuary sketches were ever made of a woman who was covered from the neck down for the jurors to identify. Once they completed the Volte Face, her body would look like a quilt. And I cant imagine sketching would accomplish anything once they knew photos had been taken already.

Im fairly certain Ive read that the photos we know of, MJK1 and MJK3, were 2 of 6 total...I think one of the plates had sequence numbering on them.

Best regards Mal, all.

[Malcolm X]

What I found interesting about that quote is that this Arthur fellow essentially talks only about Marys economic woes. The bare facts about why she is famous are summarized after.. incorrectly.

He even seems a bit titillated by her predicament.

Id say, no mortuary sketches were ever made of a woman who was covered from the neck down for the jurors to identify. Once they completed the Volte Face, her body would look like a quilt. And I cant imagine sketching would accomplish anything once they knew photos had been taken already.

Im fairly certain Ive read that the photos we know of, MJK1 and MJK3, were 2 of 6 total...I think one of the plates had sequence numbering on them.

Best regards Mal, all.

yes 2 of 6 is what almost everyone sais, but where these are is anybodies guess

[cappuccina]

Hi PerryM...I remember reading two accounts...one sad there were six photos taken, another 10.

It would make perfect sense that the photographer would take as many pictures as he could given the difficulty of the scene he was working with and the weather.

I think there are at least 4 more photos out there...possibly more.... (possibly all lost/destroyed during WWII).

Also, it would make perfect sense that there are mortuary stetches, probably at least 2, i.e., done from different "views" out there. We know that sketching was certainly a part of the autopsy protocol back then, as well as getting aditional photographs of the body in the morgue, and given the horrific and somewhat unusual nature of this crime, these steps (sketching and additional photographs of the body taken at the morgue..) would certainly NOT have been skipped by the pathologist, I don't think...

What is fascinating to me, however, is how the additional information never came to light before WWII, when a lot of things like this were lost and destroyed...

[perrymason]

Hi PerryM...I remember reading two accounts...one sad there were six photos taken, another 10.

It would make perfect sense that the photographer would take as many pictures as he could given the difficulty of the scene he was working with and the weather.

I think there are at least 4 more photos out there...possibly more.... (possibly all lost/destroyed during WWII).

Also, it would make perfect sense that there are mortuary stetches, probably at least 2, i.e., done from different "views" out there. We know that sketching was certainly a part of the autopsy protocol back then, as well as getting aditional photographs of the body in the morgue, and given the horrific and somewhat unusual nature of this crime, these steps (sketching and additional photographs of the body taken at the morgue..) would certainly NOT have been skipped by the pathologist, I don't think...

What is fascinating to me, however, is how the additional information never came to light before WWII, when a lot of things like this were lost and destroyed...

Hi Caps....nice to see you.

Sound reasoning, but we are talking about large pieces of flesh and matter having been removed from the corpse..her arm is almost separated from her body. The wooden box that her remains are taken away in I dont believe was even full coffin sized. Most victims were stretchered to the morgue, Mary need a box.

I dont know what value sketching a hollowed shell would have, unless each individual piece that was cut free is also sketched in its place where found...and there is no indication on record that a police sketch artist was in Millers Court that day.

When they took the other women to the morgue, they took intact human beings with displaced organs that could just be placed back into or on the victim to transport them. With Mary, that could not be done.

I would imagine just raising that corpse intact would be an issue.

Best regards as always Ms Caps.

[cappuccina]

Hi PerryM,

That is exactly why I think they would have tried to sketch or photograph the "pieces", because of the unusual nature of the crime, and the Ripper connection...

If they picked up the body with the bedclothes, or even kept as much as they could on the mattress, they would have had more to work with then one might think...

[Malcolm X]

there is somethig else......these sketches/ other photos would've been too repulsive for public viewing, so maybe they were hidden away/ not drawn.........dont forget her spine was on view from pelvis to rib cage.

and other photos are probably from the end of the bed looking towards her head, that really would look disgusting............ many web photos are head and chest only, with the face blurred over and this is 2009!

no i mean mortuary sketches..not scene of crime

[cappuccina]

...true...but I vote for them being "hidden away" rather than 'not drawn'...

[Malcolm X]

...true...but I vote for them being "hidden away" rather than 'not drawn'...

yup hidden away and lost or stolen, this murder is way too important at that time for only 2 photos, i expect the fireplace etc was photoed too

[perrymason]

Ok Ms Caps,.... assuming that there would be a need, or even a procedure that called for sketches to be made...we agree that would be done while the body is in place at the scene, right? There is no value at the morgue with parts placed on tables, ....so your challenge is to provide one source that suggests, hints, states, or verifies that a police artist was in that room Friday afternoon. Or in the courtyard. Good luck ma cherie.

Since were talking about LVP photography as well, this isnt hand held Instamatics were talking about, were talking about glass plates, a large size device, like on a tripod or stand, and limited physical ways to frame and focus a shot.

My bet is six shots total, from left of the bed, MJK1, to the right of the bed, MJK3, down the bed, (MJK2?), back up it, MJK4? a shot of the nighttable and contents, MJK5? and of some of the parts placed about her, MJK6?.

I think the space, the light, and the moving about of the camera might cause the photographer to take 2 shots from near the same spots,.. so he only really has to move the apparatus substantially 3 times. He places it to the left of the bed, he gets Marys left side profile, MJK1...then he moves it towards the nightable further, shoots down the bed for MJK2...he maybe places the box on the rolled up bedding to shoot MJK3, moves it slightly to the end of the bed for MJK4, from her feet up the bed, then places it by the night table to shoot the table contents, MJK5, and a slight move in position to shoot some parts placed about her, MJK6.

All complete guess work by me on moves and numbering, granted...but the overall gist is that there is little forensic value in terms of the investigation in the actual state of Marys remains,...specific sketches I cant see revealing anything that might aid investigations.

But who knows right?

All the best Caps.