Mary Kelly....Penny Illustrated

[Jane Coram]

Hi Frank,

Just going back to which window pane it was - I think the thread got a bit waylaid!

I thought the same at first, but when I re-read the official statement Bowyer made, I think he might have had a bit of trouble with his terminology or at least got muddled -it's a good possibility anyway.

After we went and knocked on the door and went around the corner in the first part of the statement he says, 'there was a broken window in the farthest window,' - and of course we know that it wasn't the farthest, it was the nearest......so he obviously got it wrong somehow, although there are a few ways to interpret it.........

Then, after being shown the map, he says 'I refer to the plan and I mean the farthest pane of the first window, the small one ...'

So I suspect that Bowyer, probably under the strain of giving testimony and in shock, either got his near and fars mixed up and meant the nearest pane in the first window, or even if he did mean the farthest pane in the first window, it's clear that his thinking was a bit hazy at the time.

That makes me feel that Phillips testimony is a bit more solid, especially when you add it to the good quality photo, which does seem to show quite clearly broken glass in the top and bottom panes of the right hand side of the small window.

But as with everything else, it's open to interpretation........which is probably good as otherwise there wouldn't be much to talk about.

Much love

Jane

xxxxx

[Jane Coram]

Sorry, as usual I forgot something!

Bagster Phillips, is also open to interpretation in what he says to some extent, so it does show that you can't trust anyone. Lol.

In his testimony he says 'Two of the panes in the window nearest the passage were broken...'

Now he could have meant that two of the panes in the window that was nearest the passage were broken, or he could have meant that the two panes were the ones nearest the passage...........take your pick..........(I think it was probably the first as that seems more likely)

But it seems the police tried the window opening trick and found it could be done easily - and that couldn't have been achieved through the top broken pane, so it must have been the bottom one..........which would have to have been on the right...........and that agrees with the photo...........and I'm going to go before I get dizzy!

Hugs

Jane

xxxx

[Malcolm X]

I'm 60/40 the other way.Donald Swanson was an "interesting" person who made a lot of errors,given he was in charge of things and had access to everything.
Wasn't having a go at you Malcolm X.Appreciate the fact that you have made me examine some things more closely.I'm content to go with the flow.

oh no i didn't think you were having a go at all, i was simply replying...i get a bit like a BULL TO A RED RAG over Hutch that's all, anyone could be the Ripper, but only 3 people could've killed Kelly.

either..Blotchy face...Hutch... or someone else if Hutch wasn't there at all....actually that means enyone doesn't it

yea' you've gotta' laugh or you'll go stir crazy

[Malcolm X]

hi JANE

rest assured that both windows were broken, because we've talked about this in the past, plus i've seen other pictures of it.

[perrymason]

In relation to the GSG.After a previous post where I agreed JTR probably had the chalk for "Stride's location",I did some checking with the police files.The message was blurred.Reckon the GSG was written previously-someone had attempted briefly to rub it off.The police washed it off.Try it!
Goulston Street was possibly named after Theodore Goulston.If JTR was a surgeon.............bit of synchronicity.

It was written on a wall that would be damp with at least some condensation due to the earlier rain ...I dont think the blur if there was some was anything more than environmental and surface issues Mr H. Certainly not an indicator of its age, its hardly likely grafitti that was pro- Jew, if anything its meaning is ambiguous towards Jews or suggesting some blame they evaded, rightly or wrongly,...I seriously doubt whether that would survive long in place on the wall where Jewish people started passing before dawn.

Meaning....if it preceded the apron section, it was by a few hours at most, after the residents of the model homes were not likely to pass by anymore due to the hour....which would make the co-incidence even more bizarre....he finds the freshest graffiti in the area by accident and leaves his rag there?

Cheers Mr H.

[Mr.Hyde]

If Bowyer lived on the "premises" the pane would have been furthest.
Same way tonight Jane-6 of one, half a dozen of the same thing.
Yep,gotta laugh mate.

[Malcolm X]

wasn't the GSG sheltered from the rain?.........i'm sure it was inside but in clear view, maybe on the adjoing wall, if my memory servs me right, .... i cant check now because i've got to go to work.

i'll talk later

[Sam Flynn]

How does a discussion around Mary Kelly's portrait in the Penny Illustrated paper morph into a discussion about the Goulston Street Graffito?

This case gets more mysterious by the minute...

[Mr.Hyde]

Mr.Hyde

It was written on a wall that would be damp with at least some condensation due to the earlier rain ...I dont think the blur if there was some was anything more than environmental and surface issues Mr H. Certainly not an indicator of its age, its hardly likely grafitti that was pro- Jew, if anything its meaning is ambiguous towards Jews or suggesting some blame they evaded, rightly or wrongly,...I seriously doubt whether that would survive long in place on the wall where Jewish people started passing before dawn.

Meaning....if it preceded the apron section, it was by a few hours at most, after the residents of the model homes were not likely to pass by anymore due to the hour....which would make the co-incidence even more bizarre....he finds the freshest graffiti in the area by accident and leaves his rag there?

Cheers Mr H.

Did factor in high humidity.GSG under cover.As I suggested,try it.Even better,do it!
OMG!Where is smezenen when you need him!Hope your wife is better mate!
Synchronicity,not accident-life's like that!Goulston Street!

[Dr. John Watson]

But it seems the police tried the window opening trick and found it could be done easily - and that couldn't have been achieved through the top broken pane, so it must have been the bottom one..........which would have to have been on the right...........and that agrees with the photo...........and I'm going to go before I get dizzy!

Hugs

Jane

xxxx

But Jane, if police "tried the window opening trick and found it could be done easily . . ." why didn't they open the door that way?

[perrymason]

Hi again,

Sams right about the GSG and other phenomena...best on another thread, but Ill just leave my opinion on that Mr H with this....brick sweats.

On the pane(s), the logical assumption is that the pane that was used by Barnett had to allow him to reach the latch with his own arm....barring his superhero identity as Stretch Armstrong, anything but the lower right section would be near impossible Id imagine.

But thats a good question you ask, and one that has no answer on print, if they could see or knew that access method then why force the door...no less by the landlord himself, who we believe knew of the latch method too.

As I said before, I can only see "for show" as an answer so far.

Best regards Mr H, all.

[Mr.Hyde]

Mr.Hyde

But Jane, if police "tried the window opening trick and found it could be done easily . . ." why didn't they open the door that way?

Sorry for butting in...............
Newer windows than that stick.From the outside,particularly if the bottom is recessed,there are no "handles" to facilitate matters-designed that way on purpose.Frustrating.Maybe why they forced the door.
Was there a secondary bolt on the inside left of the door?That is an honest question.
Reckon MK had been expecting JTR for several weeks-not out and about on her usual "tricks" and broke.Gambled on blackmail and lost-possibly because she trusted Hutchinson as back up.

[perrymason]

Sorry for butting in...............
Newer windows than that stick.From the outside,particularly if the bottom is recessed,there are no "handles" to facilitate matters-designed that way on purpose.Frustrating.Maybe why they forced the door.
Was there a secondary bolt on the inside left of the door?That is an honest question.
Reckon MK had been expecting JTR for several weeks-not out and about on her usual "tricks" and broke.Gambled on blackmail and lost-possibly because she trusted Hutchinson as back up.

I think you may have misunderstood John Mr H, or I did, because I thought referring to the "window opening trick" referred to the access to the latch via the broken pane...not opening the window.

Her door had a key lock that the key was lost for, and the spring latch inside. That was her security system, total....Jack or no Jack. But until the end of October, Barnett lived there too...so did Maria for a bit. She was only truly alone in that room for a few days.

Best regards

[Malcolm X]

Did factor in high humidity.GSG under cover.As I suggested,try it.Even better,do it!
OMG!Where is smezenen when you need him!Hope your wife is better mate!
Synchronicity,not accident-life's like that!Goulston Street!

ha ha, i'm getting to like you

[Jane Coram]

Hi Dr Watson,

Why didn't the police use the window trick?

This has been discussed quite a few times, and I think it was mentioned earlier in the thread, but there is actually no definitive answer.

Authorities on the subject differ, with some suggesting that although the key had been lost, that it could have been found again some time before the murder (unbeknownst to Joe) and that the door had been locked from the outside, which was why the police had to break in. (Paul Begg and Don Rumbelow)

I think though the most obvious reason is that Joe Barnett didn't tell the police about that method of opening the door until after the police had broken in. They didn't use that method, simply because they didn't know about it! (Phillip Sugden seems to go with that idea)

There are of course other possible reasons, such as police procedure or that they just didn't want to put their arm through the broken glass, with so much blood and gore inside........we'll never know for sure......

Best guess though, they just didn't know about it.

Hugs

Jane

xxxx