Mary Kelly....Penny Illustrated

[Mr.Hyde]

Hi Jane Coram and perrymason,
Makes sense to me.
Seen two versions-one of which said the door was bolted.
Thanks for clarifying the matter,
Dave.

[Malcolm X]

the killer could definitely reach in though, because that's what Joe Barnett said and quite easily too, the door latch would be about 2 bricks away; so yes very easy to reach in

i've seen that lower broken window many times in the past, but no idea where...but it was definitely a larger hole than shown on this thread...it was about 1/2 to 2/3rds of the glass missing..

the hole would need to be quite large, because reaching in through a small hole, while wearing a baggy jacket/ coat would foul on the glass, causing it to break away onto the floor inside

[perrymason]

Hi Jane Coram and perrymason,
Makes sense to me.
Seen two versions-one of which said the door was bolted.
Thanks for clarifying the matter,
Dave.

Im glad your mollified, but Im wondering if Im getting dotty about those smaller individual insets within the quadrants. The pictures clearly dont show them, but I know Ive seen one that does.

I would imagine there may be an explanation if the photo was taken before the windows were replaced after the investigation, and I saw a shot of the replacements. Ill try and work that out.

One thing though Mr H, I saw the same possibility with the height of that front window ledge, easily stepped over by a man of average height I would think.

Cheers mates.

[Khanada]

Michael, could you maybe be thinking of the other window in the same wall, but further from the door?

[Malcolm X]

no Michael means this window here ( i think), the illustrator made a big mistake, this window as we all know had 4 large panes only, he's also messed up the bricks to the right...far too many/ alleyway too wide, you'll notice the large window is boarded over too

[Dr. John Watson]

If the inquest testimony is accurate, and there's no reason to doubt that it is, then the darkened area of that lower pane must be where the hole is. So, it would be possible to reach in and unlatch the door - something that would certainly have been obvious to police. Why then was it necessary to force the door open from the outside?

[Jon Guy]

Hello Doctor

The police must have tried the door,and noticed that the key was not in the lock and just assumed it was locked. It would have been easy for them to force the door and something they did on a regular basis.

Barnett didn`t turn up at Millers Court till later so he couldn`t tell them,and would John McCarthy have known ? I doubt it as the tennants would have to pay to have the key replaced, and the broken window whilst they were at it, and the arrears.

[Sam Flynn]

Good points, Jon.

[DVV]

One thing that bothers me about this door/latch/key, is that Mary isn't reported to have used the broken window when entering home with Blotchy.

Amitiés,
David

[Jon Guy]

Thanks, Sam.

Question: Would todays Police have stuck their arm through the window to open the door ?

Wouldn`t that be contaminating a crime scene ?

[Sam Flynn]

One thing that bothers me about this door/latch/key, is that Mary isn't reported to have used the broken window when entering home with Blotchy.

Perhaps she only felt it necessary to close the latch when she was inside the room, Dave - it's not as if she had much worth stealing. Then again, perhaps Mary did indeed perform the "window-trick" - it wasn't as if Mrs Cox was going to go into all that detail ("I saw her go round the corner and put her hand through the window to open the door..."), in what was a rather pithy witness statement anyway.

Question: Would todays Police have stuck their arm through the window to open the door ?

Wouldn`t that be contaminating a crime scene ?

I doubt that such considerations would have occurred to them in those pre-fingerprinting days, Jon.

[Jon Guy]

Sorry Sam, I meant today`s police.

Would they stick an arm through the broken window to open the door ?

probably not.

[Jon Guy]

it wasn't as if Mrs Cox was going to go into all that detail ("I saw her go round the corner and put her hand through the window to open the door..."), in what was a rather pithy witness statement anyway.

Kelly was only " a few steps in front of me as I went up the court".

I think you are correct, the door must have been off the latch. As they went straight into the room and Mr Blotchy banged it shut as Coxy passed the doorway to No.13.

It would have been like a Laurel and Hardy sketch if Kelly went around the corner and then came back to the door, Coxy would have mentioned it.

[Malcolm X]

Hello Doctor

The police must have tried the door,and noticed that the key was not in the lock and just assumed it was locked. It would have been easy for them to force the door and something they did on a regular basis.

yes, as simple as that

[perrymason]

One thing that bothers me about this door/latch/key, is that Mary isn't reported to have used the broken window when entering home with Blotchy.

Amitiés,
David

Hi David, all....

I agree with what has been said, Mary likely left her spring latch "on" when she left, which would prevent the door from locking from the inside. I think part of the reason we see Mary with a man not named Joe heading to her room...the first such unknown man that we know of in her room, ..is because she had left the room unlocked...so anyone could have entered while she was gone, and she had coaxed him into walking her home.

Thanks for the picture of the larger window Khanada, and yes, thats the composition of panes within a frame I was talking about...but as Mal pointed out accurately, the sketch with the broken panes above one another doesnt show the quadrant frame, as it appears in the photo.

Havent figured it out yet.

Best regards all.