Mary Kelly....Penny Illustrated

[Dr. John Watson]

Hi Doc,

I hadnt heard that the panes were located directly above or below each other, as I said, I thought one is located in the left hand upper part of the window, in one small pane within the frame, and the latch one is lower right.

If you could put your pic up here that might help.

Best regards.

Hi Michael. I checked through all the Ripper picture files on my computer and can't find that particular photo, the enhanced one showing both broken panes. (I do have several copies of the room photo and tried enhancing the window area myself; I was able to clearly see the broken upper pane, but couldn't bring out the lower break.) I don't believe the photo was in a book. I think it was online, perhaps in Ripperologist - or even on this site (although I couldn't find it here either). It was an enlargement of the window area done specifically to show the two broken panes. I do have a contemporary drawing of the window, showing both breaks, but this is definitely not the photo I'm talking about. If I can ever find it, I'll let you know.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi John,

Stewart Evans posted the clearest picture I've seen of the windows on the "Room 13 Miller's Court" thread, about a year ago. Check out the first post at the end of the following link:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=612

[perrymason]

Thanks for looking that up so thoroughly John, and for the post of the sketch. I think the element that is missing is the detail the windows had, as I mention below.

On your link Sam, I dont think that is as good as you believe, if you look carefully inside the 4 frames that make up the complete window, you will notice very slight, even ghosted type images of individual panes within each framed quadrant. I have seen an enhanced picture, and read reference to the fact that the window was made up individually framed segments within each quarter frame.

I mentioned earlier I thought it may be 5 rows high of 3 panes across, or 3 rows high of 5 panes, but that photo makes me think it was 3 panes across, inside each framed quadrant.

I wish I could remember the thread, or the article, Im afraid at this moment I cant....but I am almost certain that what is seen in the link you gave is the overall appearance of Marys dirty window, but not in the detail that would show the individual panes within the four framed sections.

All the best.

[Sam Flynn]

On your link Sam, I dont think that is as good as you believe...

... it's good enough for me to make out what appears to be the broken lower pane, Mike.

[perrymason]

... it's good enough for me to make out what appears to be the broken lower pane, Mike.

In the top photo that Stewart shows, I see a possible hole in the middle of the lower right hand quadrant...and if you look, you might see the geometric patterns surrounding it....to me it looks like its the second row up of three smaller panes across, from the bottom,.. and the middle of three smaller panes within the frame. To my eye anyway.

Cheers Sam

[BillieHoliday]

i think she would have gone out soliciting as skimpily clad as possible. If you see the young whores today hanging around certain parts of London in the cold of winter - they brave the elements in mini skirts and bare legs - they have to, they have to put their stall out for the customers.

If MKK's hair was one of her best features as reported, then it makes total sense that she worse it lose to the waist without a hat and no coat to disguise her figure.

They were hardy figures the victorians, they relied on open fires that never get you all round warm. I still remember as a child relying on open fires and parrafin heaters - but as much as I hated it, I was used to it and the Victorian's tolerance for cold climates was surely far higher than ours?

[Malcolm X]

i think she would have gone out soliciting as skimpily clad as possible. If you see the young whores today hanging around certain parts of London in the cold of winter - they brave the elements in mini skirts and bare legs - they have to, they have to put their stall out for the customers.

If MKK's hair was one of her best features as reported, then it makes total sense that she worse it lose to the waist without a hat and no coat to disguise her figure.

They were hardy figures the victorians, they relied on open fires that never get you all round warm. I still remember as a child relying on open fires and parrafin heaters - but as much as I hated it, I was used to it and the Victorian's tolerance for cold climates was surely far higher than ours?

more likely that she didn't have any other clothing to wear, poor girl was almost destitute........... she went out in the rain/cold with no coat on, no hat on... thus i expect she had neither

her room would've been utterly freezing.......2 broken windows!

but my guess is she didn't go out again later on when HUTCH supposedly saw her

[Dr. John Watson]

Mike, after reviewing that interesting thread posted by Sam, I'm now of the mind that there was only one pane broken in that window, the upper one with the large hole. I'm attaching a closeup of that window which I have tried to enhance by adjusting lighting and contrast. The break in the upper pane is very apparent; I can make out no such breakage in any of the other panes. A shadow, perhaps, but nothing resembling a broken pane. The has caused me to think that the story of MJK or Barnett being able to unlock the latch by reaching through the broken window is simply untrue. It might have been possible if the lower pane had been broken, but I don't think the average person could reach the door handle through the upper pane. That would explain why police had to force the door open from the outside.

[Mr.Hyde]

Door was bolted from the inside.
JTR out through bottom half of window.

[Jane Coram]

Hi All,

If we look at the inquest testimony it clears up a lot of the points that have been raised on this thread about the window and door of Mary's room.

Firstly the window pane. There is actually a thread discussing this already which is worth a read:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=612

The inquest testimony makes it clear that both the upper and lower window panes on the right hand side of the smaller window were broken, and they are quite clear in the photos that Stewart Evans posted on the above thread.

George Bagster Phillips giving testimony at the inquest (November 12, 1888)
(The Daily Telegraph, Tuesday, November 13, 1888)

Two panes in the lesser window were broken, and as the door was locked I looked through the lower of the broken panes

So there is no doubt that there were two broken window panes.

As to whether or not it was possible to open the door through the broken window pane:

Inspector Abberline at the inquest, speaking about the key and the locked door:

Barnett informs me that it [the key] has been missing some time, and since it has been lost they have put their hand through the broken window, and moved back the catch. It is quite easy.

So the police had obviously tested to see if it was possible to open the door that way and found it to be quite easy.

The door was fitted with a spring lock - that is you needed a key to open it, but once inside you could drop the latch to lock the door and all you had to do to secure it when you left was shut the door behind you - no need of a key.

Most of the newspapers carried the same stories, but here is the one from the Daily Telegraph of the 10th November:

The last person to have left the place must have closed the door behind him, taking with him the key from the spring lock,

So basically, all her killer had to do was leave and shut the door behind him. A lot of the newspapers carried the story that her killer had taken the key with him, but Barnett said that the key had been lost for some time.....her killer didn't need a key to leave - he just had to walk through the door and shut it behind him.

There is one newspaper sketch at least showing Mary's killer escaping through the window, but it was just a bit of fantasy on the part of the newspaper artist.

The fact that the door had a spring lock also ties in with being able to open the door through the broken window. No key was needed - you just had to pull the catch back and the door would open.

Hope that clears up some of the queries.

Hugs

Jane

xxxxx

[perrymason]

Hi John,

I know that the photo looks to reveal certain details, and Im not trying to validate my claim by insisting that what appears to be isnt actually what was....but Im not sure if whats present there is wiped off dirt or a hole. I know Ive read 2 panes were broken, and again, Im almost certain that each quadrant that we see had multiple smaller panes in it. And as you say, the latch method seems impossible from that location. If the lost key is true, they either never locked the room using the spring latch, or did use the window-latch method he says they did. But then later McCarthy forces the door....Ive wondered why he would do that when supposedly he knew of the latch method too.

Ill look....I may have even saved that image somewhere.

Mr Hyde, the issue with your idea is that not only the doors were locked, but so were the windows. The Locked Room murder. Therefore he had to leave via the door, and he had to set the latch off...so it would lock behind him when it closed. Because if he came in that same door, the latch would have been set on to unlock it from inside...and we have the missing key story.

Best regards gents.

[perrymason]

I think the outlined areas are breaks John.

[perrymason]

Heres the original one I marked....sorry see below

[perrymason]

Once more...

[perrymason]

Sorry, I missed your post Janie, nicely put.

My best as always Ms C