Definitely canonical

[Mr.Hyde]

Mr.Hyde

it looks like with the other victims, that they only had to be Female, he didn't give a damn what they looked like/age etc, but the last victim was different, she was very special in his mind, a symbol of something!

i'm trying to get right back to basics now and many things are starting to make sense, that didn't before..sometimes one cant see the wood for the trees!

MAK was probably THE CV.She seems to have links to at least 3 other CVs.
JTR had a daughter ~ MAK's age.Mary A. ....................?Really!

[Sam Flynn]

A woman found with her throat cut would have been enough at that time to suggest that Jack had struck. Stride has been classed canonical on just that fact.

A very good point, CX.

[CitizenX]

If MJK was a copycat killing to be blamed on Jack, why would the killer go to such extremes?

A woman found with her throat cut would have been enough at that time to suggest that Jack had struck. Stride has been classed canonical on just that fact.

If MJK wasn't killed by someone using the ripper murders as a cover what are the chances of two killers with the same signature killing in such a small area...Very slim methinks.

[Sam Flynn]

If it was the Ripper who killed and butchered Kelly, then he did in fact apply the same mode of opening up her abdomen [as with Chapman]. And I don't see why he did that for any other main purpose than to just have access to the organs inside...

... and a lot MORE organs in the case of Kelly - hence the more complete "de-flapping" of her abdomen than he was able to achieve in the time- and fence-constrained surroundings of the back yard of 29 Hanbury Street.

[Malcolm X]

it looks like with the other victims, that they only had to be Female, he didn't give a damn what they looked like/age etc, but the last victim was different, she was very special in his mind, a symbol of something!

i'm trying to get right back to basics now and many things are starting to make sense, that didn't before..sometimes one cant see the wood for the trees!

[FrankO]

On your first paragraph above, I think that its a mistake to say that we dont know that he was unsatisfied with the acts that were performed outdoors at all,...

Hi Mike,

You must have misunderstood, but what I tried to say was that what he did out in the streets definately satisfied him, but that doesn't mean that that was all that could or would satisfy him. I don't want to offend anyone, but picture this. You're an adolescent and you've been with a girlfriend for quite some time. What would you 'go for' first when you brought your girlfriend home and you had some 10 minutes or so to say goodbye for the night before she got inside? And what would you do when her parents wouldn't be home and you had the night to yourselves inside her home? Is there a difference? If so, then you know what I mean.

On the second, you cant really suggest that the flaps made with Marys abdomen flesh were done to aid accessing abdominal organs he will take with him, can you?

Why not?

Like I said before, there is no way of knowing why he used one way of opening up Chapman's abdomen and another with Eddowes', there's just the fact that he did. We can second-guess all that we want, but we'll never know. And if he did it like that in Chapman's case, there no need to think he couldn't or wouldn't again in Kelly's case. Or that it was more or less likely to happen again.

If it was the Ripper who killed and butchered Kelly, then he did in fact apply the same mode of opening up her abdomen. And I don't see why he did that for any other main purpose than to just have access to the organs inside. Regardless of whatever he did or didn't do with those organs afterwards. That really has nothing to do with the way he gained access to the organs in the first place.

As to the taking of her heart, he may just as well have come up with that idea later on in the process. For instance, he may have thought of that when he had cut off her breasts and saw the heart through the ribs. On the other hand, in Eddowes' case he also took away an organ that was placed higher up in the left side of the torso, not far below the heart.

You and David and Sam and others have noticed that a technique that is rare is used on 2 murders that are within the Canonical Group. The second and the 5th.

What I've noticed is that, in 4 victims that had their abdomen cut at one point or another in the whole phase of being attacked, a certain technique is used twice, in the 2nd and 4th. I wouldn't call it a rare technique.

Youve failed to account for the probability that if Marys killing was intended to look like a Ripper killing by copying some of his acts....of course not where he finds victims in this case, or how he starts the attack in the case, ...he would have at his disposal information prior to the murder that discusses the various things Jack does to women postmortem.

I already acknowledged that details that had been disclosed by the press could be used by anyone who would want to have his murder look like a Ripper murder. So, if MJK was actually butchered by such a person, it would be smart to copy at least some of the things he had read or heard about the murders. And plenty had been written about it in the papers.

My contention has always been that Mary is probably not Jacks work ....

No problem there.

It wasnt...and still isnt.

Couldn't agree with you more.

The best, Mike!
Frank

[Malcolm X]

Nothing says Jacks outdoor run wasnt working for him.

Best regards.

now was it! dont forget if Stride was his victim, then he was disturbed, yes he killed Eddowes as per normal, but the Stride murder ( later on) might have effected him........... therefore this and the increased police presence on the streets/ vigilantes etc.........might have caused him to back off for a month and to think ``i dont feel safe on the streets anymore, i need to kill indoors and to be safe``..

do i think this? NO... i honstly think that he was searching for a young attractive woman; the closest he could get in such a dreadful area, to a classic ``English Rose`` for his last victim, this took a month..

why so?....... because the Ripper wouldn't have worried about being seen on the streets, good grief; the suspect descriptions are rubbish.

the Kelly murder is wrong wrong wrong and i honestly think that you're noticing this too, but dont as yet realise this.........KELLY is simply not his normal victim type, as is choosing to kill inside/ mutilate so badly.

now, in my opinion she's definitely the Ripper's, it's just that the motives for killing her aren't the same as Eddowes, this murder is subtly different, especially if you view it from where i am.

[Sam Flynn]

Pollys, Annies and Kates killers were suggested to have some understanding of anatomy and perhaps even "surgical" experience...even at a butcher level. Marys never was.

Mike - I don't care what was "suggested" by whom at the time - how on earth can Dr Llywelyn's, or Bagster Phillips' c0ck-eyed opinions have anything to do with the identity of the killer? I'm looking at the evidence of each of the victims' wounds - NONE of which required professional skill - and ALL of which point to someone who cut women open in order to get his mitts on their organs and extract them.

I mean, this sort of behaviour isn't exactly commonplace, is it? How many men of that type do you think were wandering around the tiny district of Spitalfields in 1888 - or throughout the past 400 years, for that matter?

So a streetwalker residing in the self-same district as the other victims, her throat deeply cut by a very sharp knife, her abdomen opened (in three flaps, yet!), and her organs removed constitutes "virtually no common elements"? I hardly think so, Mike.

A streewalker undressed in her own room in her own bed, residing just like 30,000 some odd streetwalkers in the district where Jack kills, is attacked with a knife, and had all her organs removed and 99% of them left behind placed around her. There is odd similarity to the method used to access the abdomens contents, a technique that was published before the murder, and anything that the killer of Annie and Kate coveted is discarded.

Common meaning some cutting acts seemed similar...sure....common meaning they are similar murders, far from it. Pollys, Annies and Kates killers were suggested to have some understanding of anatomy and perhaps even "surgical" experience...even at a butcher level. Marys never was.

Cheers Sam.

yet again, this is because the Ripper was indoors; with far more time on his hands.... but the basic pattern is definitely the same as Eddowes.......cut throat first, head almost cut off, mutilation to the face, mutilation to the abdoman.......just much worst with KELLY.

Its not the same pattern at all...Kate is picked up while possibly soliciting as she has no bed that night....Mary may well have met her killer while she is undressed in her own bed, she defended herself against the knife....no other Canonical was thought to be conscious when a knife is first used, and the three women mentioned above had the abdomens opened...in 2 cases, definitively, so that abdominal organs could be removed and taken.

They were not just abdominally mutilated, they were cut open to get things inside them.

So Marys thigh stripping is for what, to get access to her femur to look at? Was it neccesary to empty her midsection to remove a heart? Did he feel the uterus now belonged under the head?

Cheers Mal.

[Sam Flynn]

I submit to you Mal that some very compelling evidence must be presented to include a murder that has virtually no common elements with 3 victims murdered outdoors.

So a streetwalker residing in the self-same district as the other victims, her throat deeply cut by a very sharp knife, her abdomen opened (in three flaps, yet!), and her organs removed constitutes "virtually no common elements"? I hardly think so, Mike.

you'd need some very convincing arguement to say that M.Kelly wasn't a ripper victim, all the evidence points towards her being his last..

you stand a far better chance, with Stride not as a Ripper victim.

I submit to you Mal that some very compelling evidence must be presented to include a murder that has virtually no common elements with 3 victims murdered outdoors with their abdomens opened, 2 with abdominal organ theft.

Both Mary and Liz are not included in the Canon based on their similarities with Polly, Annie and Kate, but on a premise that we cannot rule out that this killer changed his style and habits for these 2 murders.

Sunce he was batting 1000% before Mary in terms or evading capture and getting some take away goods....a change seems to me illogical....why change during a hot streak.....does a golfer who is leading the tournament Saturday come to the course Sunday with some new grip, or swing plane, or clubs.....nope, he continues to do what he has been doing until it doesnt work for him anymore.

Nothing says Jacks outdoor run wasnt working for him.

Best regards.

[Midnyte]

Hi all;
What clinches it for me is the double slash on Mary's arm. The victims all had, as you say, the throats cut so severely as to remove the head.
If the wounds on the left arm are indeed defense wounds, then the double slash would indicate that Jack (or let's say the assailant to prevent any kerfuffle ) thought that he was at the throat, or trying to get at it through the arm.
If the upper and lower wounds on the arm, (both double slashes), are lined up as though they were one continuous wound, the angles would require that the arm be bent over the head and close to the ear area.
Believe me when I say I have made jointed cut outs to line things up, and I am now working on an actual upright body from the shape on the bed, so I can see what type of body shape she had.
For example, her lower legs were long, but her thighs were short, her torso was long, (unless she had been disarticulated through the spine, which would drag the body length out a bit), and she had very long arms, but large hands.
This may help eventually in profiling her true ethnic background, and so on.
Thanks,
Joan

[Malcolm X]

Marys murder is markedly dissimilar to Annies, and is within a group of 3 murders within the C5 that match each other remarkably well in both style and activity. The commonalities that are shared by those three women are not shared with the murder of Mary Kelly.

All the best Sam

yet again, this is because the Ripper was indoors; with far more time on his hands.... but the basic pattern is definitely the same as Eddowes.......cut throat first, head almost cut off, mutilation to the face, mutilation to the abdoman.......just much worst with KELLY.

no other killer operating in Whitechapel mutilated his victims like the Eddowes murder! ...........especially Tabram or the Torso murders, and all the others are random knife attacks or similar street kills only.

i think you're way off here... with all due respect

No, he doesn't, Mike - there are significant variations in the wounds, even in your "Canonical Three". His aim, however, seems to have been to get his hands inside a woman's guts by any means possible, and to cut bits out. He seems to have failed with Nichols on the latter count, but he later made up for it - and on a grand scale, in Kelly's case.

Im not talking specific wounds Sam...the entire event.

Polly, Annie and Kate were outdoors without a room paid for, were assumed approached by the killer as a client, and were subdued without a knife, placed on the ground, had their heads almost severed and their abdomens opened....twice giving the killer somethings to take home from inside the abdomen.

The evidence suggests that all 3 were almost "identical" in those respects. He captured them the same way, subdued them the same way, cut them once lying down with the same severity, and opened their abdomens....in Pollys case, being his first and in the streets, is likely the only reason she didnt give up abdominal organs too...it was a shitty choice of venue.

Cheers again Sam