Definitely canonical

MJK was Jack's. Not someone else who decided randomly to go postal on pros. This has been discussed many times before and I won't go there.

Before Kelly, Jack was outside, operating in risky situations where it's possible he could have been discovered. He took what he could and got out.

He's got Kelly inside. He's in control. He can do to her what he wants. And he did. I've always wondered if he did indeed take the heart away with him or burn it in the kettle on the fire.

Canonical 5. They were Jack's.

That means you buy into Bond and others theories...despite the fact that less than a year later Bond suggests Alice McKenzie didnt belong to Jack because her killer lacked skill and knowledge...the very observations he suggested Jack the Ripper victims did not display the previous Fall...disagreeing with the Senior Medical opinion of the men that actually examined the victims personally...Bond only did one Canonical autopsy.

The murder in room 13 was likely committed by someone that knew Mary based on the circumstantial evidence...and that potential connection could address much of the violent and angry components seen in her murder and no others. Perhaps even spiteful acts, like sticking organs around her and under her head.

I would think a crime of passion and a murder with clinical disposition make 2 entirely different crime scenes....like Marys was compared with the more clinical murder-extractions done outdoors.

Best regards

[Nothing to see]

MJK was Jack's. Not someone else who decided randomly to go postal on pros. This has been discussed many times before and I won't go there.

Before Kelly, Jack was outside, operating in risky situations where it's possible he could have been discovered. He took what he could and got out.

He's got Kelly inside. He's in control. He can do to her what he wants. And he did. I've always wondered if he did indeed take the heart away with him or burn it in the kettle on the fire.

Canonical 5. They were Jack's.

That doesn't necessarily follow, Mike. 1. Like Eddowes' kidney - or even Chapman's womb - it could have been a spur of the moment decision. 2. I can't see any reason why we should assume that the Ripper distinguished between "taking out" and "taking away". 3. Besides, he removed practically every organ from the neck downwards and - as I've said before - he couldn't take all that lot away with him, even if he'd tried. A bit easier than sawing through the ribcage with a knife, perhaps. The benefit of taking the "southern route" is that you're only dealing with soft tissue, rather than bone - and, 4. let's face it, it's a lot more "fun" from the perspective of someone who enjoys getting his hands stuck in.

Hi again Sam,

On your point 1 above, it was suggested by senior medical opinion that the killer of Annie did what he did specifically to obtain her uterus, and removing a kidney through the victims front is not what a slash and grab artist would get from Kate.

On point 2, you dont see any difference between just removal and removal and theft of organs. There are potentially some huge differences between the 2 when preference is shown for organs never sought before, and ones that were taken twice before are left behind. When he cuts a coveted organ free then leaves it, your only argument to keep Jack alive is that despite the fact that he approaches and executes the murders of the abdominally mutilated Canonicals with little if any interest above or below the midsection, he actually has no preference and takes what he does based on spur of the moment thinking.

Once again youve categorized the killer as a man who simply cuts anywhere-anytime, takes any random organ he decides to on the spot, and is capable of just slicing and decorating the bed with the things he removes.. completely for his own recreation and not to achieve access or removal goals.

On point 3, again, Annies flaps were to make an abdominal entry point that he could use to enter the abdomen and to remove and take the uterus and partial bladder. As you say, almost all of Marys midsection and chest cavity is emptied and placed about her to enable access to abdominal organs that he cuts free and....... that he chooses not to take. He used to cut intestines free so he could access the abdominal organs easier...I could see his leaving them behind in the same way Marys killer left her intact uterus behind....Marys killer didnt want abdominal organs specifically. But the Ripper surely did.

On point 4, the only people who imagine that what Jack the Ripper really wanted ultimately was just to cut and stick his hands in corpses, are the people that believe he killed Kelly. Without Marys inconsistencies placed at the foot of the Ripper, the random meaningless thigh peels, uterus-placed-under-her-head-with-a-breast kind of mindless behavior, the glut of gore and posed remains scenario......the Jack the Ripper that would remain is the one that may have killed 3 women consecutively in order to mutilate their abdomens to enter and take organs from that region.....specifically. Since he doesnt open their chests before Mary, it would appear the goal of an organ in her chest was brand new with that crime.

Of all the many, many things about that night and whats done to Mary that are first and only occurrences within the Canonical Group, rejecting already extracted organs from the region that was his sole focus before Mary should have been an indication that this killer didnt covet abdominal organs at all.....not that Jack now decided he didnt want them. Maybe Marys killer didnt know why Jack took abdominal organs, so he didnt repeat those acts....but he sure didnt have Jacks interest in them.

He doesnt change everything about his approach, his attack, his demonstrated focus on cutting into the abdomen to get at abdominal organs to take with him on his last murder,.. I dont believe thats a viable premise.

Best regards Sam

[Malcolm X]

i for one think that he targeted her heart... that was his goal a week or so before!

[Sam Flynn]

The only thing that can be said about her heart is that he took it, the implication is that he wanted it.

That doesn't necessarily follow, Mike. Like Eddowes' kidney - or even Chapman's womb - it could have been a spur of the moment decision.

Since he took no other organ, that seems to be a fairly safe bet.

I can't see any reason why we should assume that the Ripper distinguished between "taking out" and "taking away". Besides, he removed practically every organ from the neck downwards and - as I've said before - he couldn't take all that lot away with him, even if he'd tried.

And skin flaps of her abdomen are in no way required to access her heart.

A bit easier than sawing through the ribcage with a knife, perhaps. The benefit of taking the "southern route" is that you're only dealing with soft tissue, rather than bone - and, let's face it, it's a lot more "fun" from the perspective of someone who enjoys getting his hands stuck in.

[Malcolm X]

I dont know what youre issues are to keep posting that Im wrong each post Mal, but youll note that I mentioned a severed boiled arm and that Marys arm was essentially severed as well.

Best regards

i'm not personally attacking you at all Perrymason...i just think you're wrong on this Kelly murder

``You keep painting Jacks cutting as something impossible to imitate....when the evidence with Alice suggests the polar opposite is true.``

yes Alice Mckenzie is similar... could be another killer, but could also be Jack... because nobody knows if he stopped killing or simply downgraded

* Cause of death from severance of the left carotid artery.
* Two stabs in the left side of the neck 'carried forward in the same skin wound.'...........very strange!
* Some bruising on chest.
* Five bruises or marks on left side of abdomen.
* Cut was made from left to right, apparently while McKenzie was on the ground.
* A long (seven-inch) 'but not unduly deep' wound from the bottom of the left breast to the navel........very strange!
* Seven or eight scratches beginning at the navel and pointing toward the genitalia...... very strange!
* Small cut across the mons veneris..... very strange!

very strange means:- a killer that was interested or thinking about mutilating this region of the body, in a very similar way to the ripper, it looks like what the ripper would've done to TABRAM; if he had killed her........... a beginner......he was thinking ``well maybe, i'm not sure; maybe next time i kill``..........this murder is quite interesting.

i'm very glad you mentioned Alice...uuuuuummm

I side-step nothing, Mike. I just cut to the chase.They are, if you intend clearing out the abdominal organs before burrowing upwards to get at the heart - not that I'm suggesting he was necessarily "after" the heart in the first place. Even if he were, how else was he to do it? Saw through each of her ribs with his knife?

The only thing that can be said about her heart is that he took it, the implication is that he wanted it. Since he took no other organ, that seems to be a fairly safe bet.

And skin flaps of her abdomen are in no way required to access her heart....as you suggested impishly, he could saw through her ribs to get it with his knife....and thats entirely possible, since there is evidence that knife can cut through bone encased in flesh.

The reason for the skin flaps isnt clear as it is with Annie...with her, it was to get access to abdominal organs that he then takes. With Mary, it could well be something he read the Ripper did....because in and of itself, it did not aid him getting at the organ that this killer chooses to covet.

Cheers Gareth.....Im on a break now, answering 3 people who disagree with you simultaneously is tiring.

[FrankO]

Both you and Frank completely sidestep the critical issue..... Skin flaps in Marys case were not needed to take her heart.

I second what Gareth wrote, Mike. I'd say that cutting away the abdominal wall instead of just opening it with one cut gave him easier access to all the abdominal organs and, therefore, easier access to the heart as well. Regardless of whether he was after heart from the start or not. And regardless of whatever he did with the organs once he'd cut them out.

The best, Mike,
Frank

[Sam Flynn]

Both you and Frank completely sidestep the critical issue.

I side-step nothing, Mike. I just cut to the chase.

Skin flaps in Marys case were not needed to take her heart.

They are, if you intend clearing out the abdominal organs before burrowing upwards to get at the heart - not that I'm suggesting he was necessarily "after" the heart in the first place. Even if he were, how else was he to do it? Saw through each of her ribs with his knife?

no a torso murder is arms/ legs/ heads cleanly cut off, but not the extensive torso mutilations of M.Kelly as well.

you've made a big mistake here

I dont know what youre issues are to keep posting that Im wrong each post Mal, but youll note that I mentioned a severed boiled arm and that Marys arm was essentially severed as well. Incorrect it may be in your eyes, but thats not provably so. There was a man that kept complete Torso's for some time, and if not the same man, a man that experimented with severed limbs and boiled water.

Its clear that few people accept that there were a plethora of bad men available to do lots of awful things in that part of the city at that time......and for that matter, anywhere in the world, at any time in history.

You keep painting Jacks cutting as something impossible to imitate....when the evidence with Alice suggests the polar opposite is true.

Best regards

... and a lot MORE organs in the case of Kelly - hence the more complete "de-flapping" of her abdomen than he was able to achieve in the time- and fence-constrained surroundings of the back yard of 29 Hanbury Street.

Both you and Frank completely sidestep the critical issue.....as I said, it cannot be said that the skin flaps aided him in getting at what he takes, as it is clearly used for in Annies case......which is then a definitive issue in Marys case. Skin flaps aided getting into Annies abdomen to take abdominal organs. Skin flaps in Marys case were not needed to take her heart.

You cant even say credibly that he had any kinds of goals or objectives that the flaps would help facilitate. Anything that was under those flaps and inside Mary...he just places about and leaves behind, which would make the only discernible objective he might have doing that is to access and cut out abdominal organs to merely place around a corpse.....the flaps were not cut from her left breast.

Its not just you Sam, its everyone that thinks they can attribute Mary to Jack based on the physical cuts made in the room. They were with few exceptions, all things that had been written about long before Mary was killed.

How she was caught, how she was attacked, what hand is used to cut with, whether he was a known person to Mary....all those have far more relevance Ripper-wise than do cuts that were in papers and were therefore, public knowledge prior to her murder.

Its abundantly clear that people can and do misrepresent the details in kills to place blame on someone else. I submit if Jack didnt kill Alice, there is one glaring example. Marys cuts suggest someone that knew what the Ripper did....which could be any individual that read papers locally, or a new Ripper that is no longer interested in opening abdomens and taking organs from within that region or meeting his women outdoors, someone who now just wants to just cut and place biological materials.


Cheers Sam.

[Malcolm X]

Sam,

.Id think she could have well been an incomplete Torso murder. Not only the torso was found during that time, a boiled arm was also found.



Best regards Sam

no a torso murder is arms/ legs/ heads cleanly cut off, but not the extensive torso mutilations of M.Kelly as well.

you've made a big mistake here

[Malcolm X]

If MJK was a copycat killing to be blamed on Jack, why would the killer go to such extremes?

A woman found with her throat cut would have been enough at that time to suggest that Jack had struck. Stride has been classed canonical on just that fact.

If MJK wasn't killed by someone using the ripper murders as a cover what are the chances of two killers with the same signature killing in such a small area...Very slim methinks.

and why would a Copycat kill a month later, more like within two weeks.
MARY is almost definitely a ripper victim...that's for sure.

Mike - I don't care what was "suggested" by whom at the time - how on earth can Dr Llywelyn's, or Bagster Phillips' c0ck-eyed opinions have anything to do with the identity of the killer? I'm looking at the evidence of each of the victims' wounds - NONE of which required professional skill - and ALL of which point to someone who cut women open in order to get his mitts on their organs and extract them.

I mean, this sort of behaviour isn't exactly commonplace, is it? How many men of that type do you think were wandering around the tiny district of Spitalfields in 1888 - or throughout the past 400 years, for that matter?

Sam,

On the first point, your opinion is that the killer showed no skill or knowledge, that is not shared by some men that actually examined Polly and Annie. Secondly, the women were opened so that abdominal organs could be taken, and thirdly, their murders in their entirety...capture to cutting, are very similar.

As to why this must be Jack... because the acts are so uncommon, or that skin flaps are a definitive sign of his work.....all I can say is that there was a known killer during that same period that took women apart, and with Marys arm basically separated from her body, her thigh stripped of matter, her completely empty body cavity....Id think she could have well been an incomplete Torso murder. Not only the torso was found during that time, a boiled arm was also found.

If Jack killed these 5, then someone or some 8-9 others attacked or killed the rest of the women during that period of 1888-1889, one of the a Torso maker, and that would include a murder that may well be the second copycat killer as a result of the Ripper crimes influence based on the press reports and street gossip....Alice McKenzie.

If Jack didnt kill Alice, someone copied his style. If Jack didnt kill Mary, the same holds true.

Best regards Sam

[FrankO]

... and a lot MORE organs in the case of Kelly - hence the more complete "de-flapping" of her abdomen than he was able to achieve in the time- and fence-constrained surroundings of the back yard of 29 Hanbury Street.

Indeed, Gareth, indeed. Good point.