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Can this drawing possibly be accurate?
I realise that Millers Court was narrow but did not picture it THIS narrow!
Chris
I realise that Millers Court was narrow but did not picture it THIS narrow!
Chris
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Hi Chris,
If the Goad's map below is to scale, then that part of Miller's Court looks like it would have been just under 5 feet wide, or thereabouts. I base this on the dimensions of Kelly's room and the passageway between #26 and #27, which I believe was about 3 feet wide.
In other words, the sketch makes the northern end of the Court appear a little too narrow, as you suggest, although not markedly so. It's possible that the woman at the bottom end of the Court was rather wide, of course - perhaps she was that Dorset Street woman described in Booth's survey, who became so fat she couldn't get out of the door
Kind regards, Sam Flynn
"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888) -
I think the picture has rather badly-done perspective....makes the narrowing appear more pronounced than the plan would suggest.
SteveComment
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The court certainly was narrow but not quite as claustrophobic as the drawing you posted, Chris. I believe it was Adrian Phypers who originally found this document:
"The court contains six houses, and is about 50 feet long, 5 feet 6 inches wide at the north end, and 7 feet 10 inches wide at the south end, and is approached by a covered entrance 26 feet 4 inches long and 2 feet 10 inches wide. At the north end of the court there are three public privies, and at the south end there is a public dust-bin, both of which are within a few feet of the school-room in question."
CheersComment
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It had to be fairly narrow...
The photograph taken from the window and the subsequent one taken from the "far" wall of #13 also display how small the room was. If you look at the table by the bedside in the "window" photo, it is in a position that is different from the "far wall" torso only photo...so I can only assume that when the door was forced - which was stupid and unnecessary to say the least - the table and the evidence upon it was moved. One can only guess at the seemingly insignificant things that may have meant something as left by Jack meant nothing as moved by PC Schwangle and Photo Op Bob. Thank you for the drawing of Miller's Court though...I was imagining an open court ala Melrose Place...a central "court". Now, this drastically changes my mind and confirms other things about that night. If Mary was struck by a knife anywhere else other than immediately in the neck - hence killing her quickly - somebody would have heard her screaming/getting hurt. Cuts/mutilations to the face while still alive would have been accompanied by yells and/or a struggle that would have been noticed in such close confines...Anyway, nice pic and topic.
BluesComment
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Hi RJMOriginally posted by RJM View PostThe court certainly was narrow but not quite as claustrophobic as the drawing you posted, Chris. I believe it was Adrian Phypers who originally found this document:
"The court contains six houses, and is about 50 feet long, 5 feet 6 inches wide at the north end, and 7 feet 10 inches wide at the south end, and is approached by a covered entrance 26 feet 4 inches long and 2 feet 10 inches wide. At the north end of the court there are three public privies, and at the south end there is a public dust-bin, both of which are within a few feet of the school-room in question."
Cheers
The 'south end' of the court ie the area outside Mary's windows was 17 feet 10 inches wide, not 7 feet 10 inches wide as it says in the dissertation.
Somebody obviously used a tape measure for that.
And yes, Chris, the court was that narrow as per the drawing.allisvanityandvexationofspiritComment
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Hi all-
It seems odd but not unnatural that the court would narrow towards the end ,Chris!
That double window Steve must have been 17 odd feet too- to accomodate those two windows!
A 12' x 12' (or close too)- room isn't actually that small- I just measured from where I'm sitting ( rather sadly!) in front of my PC in my front room [it did involve me lying on the floorr and hubby tearing himself away from Quatermass to get a tape measure...OMG!) ---- and 12' sq is a reasonable size- OK , it's a bit of my smallish living room and I wouldn't want to live in that little bit full time- but it was a damned sight better than sharing a bit of a bed in a common lodging house!
- Must have been 'luxury'!... A fireplace- a bed- a table and two windows..... Blimey! I reckon that's the size of a small single hotel room- without tea and coffee though!...kettle provided though!Last edited by Suzi; 02-13-2009, 01:42 AM.'Would you like to see my African curiosities?'
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One thing I've noticed about the Ripper*--he manages to get himself into vary favourable situations. If he'd gone for Cox, he'd have been surrounded by people living in cowboy-built cottages with no sound insulation. Someone may have heard. But he kills Kelly, in the one room that does have some distance from the neighbours. Either he was the luckiest sk in history or he was the most careful.
*Assuming she was a Ripper victim...Comment
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The distance of 7'10" referred to is accurate for the width after going through the arch and entering the court and is not a measurement from the pump and dustbin area wall on the east side of the court to the west side rooms. Mr Wrack from The Whitechapel Board of Works does not give that distance.Originally posted by Stephen Thomas View PostComment
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Hi RJMOriginally posted by RJM View Post
If you look at any map or diagram of Millers Court you'll see that the width outside Mary's door is the same as at the top of the court ie 5'6" and cannot possibly be 7'10". On the other hand 17'10" makes perfect sense as the width from the pump to the houses opposite given the fact that the houses were 12 foot deep. The 17'10" measurement I got from Simon Wood in a couple of recent posts here so maybe Simon can resolve this problem.allisvanityandvexationofspiritComment
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Hi Stephen,
Unless there is a proven transcription error in the document I must accept it as is. Maps are not accurate down to the inch. Mr. Wrack's measurements are. Even with all of the maps there is still no consensus on the dimensions of Mary Kelly's room. There are limitations to the uses of maps.
What I would really like to see are Inspector Ledger's plans of Millers Court that he drew up for the inquest. There current whereabouts are unknown like many other pieces of evidence in the case.
RobertComment
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Wassat?Originally posted by Shelley View Post
'Would you like to see my African curiosities?'Comment
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Hi RobertOriginally posted by RJM View Post
Fair enough but I strongly suspect a transcription error here.
StephenallisvanityandvexationofspiritComment
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This 17' 10" business - can I just get some clarity here?
I can fully accept that 17' 10" would be from the western side of the Court to past the windows of #13, where the Court fence would join onto the back of #25 Dorset Street. If it was 7' 10", then it would indicate MJK's room was only a couple of feet wide.
Given that accounts generally regard her room as being 10' deep and 12' wide, can't we thus suppose the 17' 10" is correct and it is referring to the area that opened out on the right as soon as you had passed #13?
PHILIPTour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd.Comment
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