The width of Millers Court

[George Hutchinson]

Sorry you're having a crummy weekend, Rob.

I was at the College of Psychic Studies in London yesterday (Ghost Club event) and though I don't hold with psychic stuff there was, nevertheless, a wonderful certificate on the wall thanking an American psychic for visiting the UK signed by W T Stead in August 1911. I got photos. Nothing to do with the thread - just a comment on my weekend.

PHILIP

[RJM]

Thanks Simon,

I hope you or someone else can dig up the original 1878 report to clear up this point once and for all.

And I do understand your point of view Stephen. I just don't want to second guess the numbers until all the facts are in.

I hope everyone is having a better weekend than I am.

Robert

Hi all,

Ive seen photos of similar courts of the time, and all I can say is its a good thing doors were hung to swing inward. Id estimate maybe two strides or slightly more across by a mans step in some Ive seen. I believe the alcove feature is 10 feet deep...with the pump and dustbin in it....based on the length of Marys wall bordering it,....added to the 7 plus feet estimates that some have for the court, that makes 17 plus feet at its widest....which may be the parameter of that measurement.

Cheers all.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

This how I first transcribed the report—

"The court contains six houses, and is about 50 feet long, 5 feet 6 inches wide at the north end, and 7 feet 10 inches wide at the south end, and is approached by a covered entrance 26 feet 4 inches long and 2 feet 10 inches wide."

I then realised that the 7 feet 10 inches measurement had to be wrong.

So grasping my trusty calculator I allowed 12 feet for Room 13 [fireplace to door] and 2 feet 10 inches for the width of the arched entrance. This got me to 14 feet 10 ten inches. I then allowed 3 feet for the recess to your left as you enter the court and arrived at 17 feet 10 inches.

Looking back through my notes I found I'd transcribed the report from Paul Begg's 'The Facts', so I think the 7 feet 10 inch measurement must have been a misprint, which does tend to confirm my calculation of 17 feet 10 inches. Maddeningly, Paul doesn't footnote the 1878 Board of Works report in my edition [a wagged finger at budding authors], so I have no way of accessing the original for full clarification.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Simon

Wassat?

Suzi,
I thought of little space only a few feet in Miller's Court ...not much housework, as i am sitting here i am thinking, blast, i've got to tidy up a bit in my house......Oh, not to mention the flippin' ironing to boot.....Which in all reality i would like to %*^!£ the ironing......I hate ironing! It's a reference to my housework Suzi

[Stephen Thomas]

Given that accounts generally regard her room as being 10' deep and 12' wide, can't we thus suppose the 17' 10" is correct and it is referring to the area that opened out on the right as soon as you had passed #13?

Yes you've got it Philip. Look at the pretty B&W Goads Map prepared by Sam at the start of this thread or the
ordnance survey maps or Sugden's diagram or whatever. There is always a straight line through the right hand side of the passageway past Prater's and Mary's doorways and past the right hand side cottages to the end of the court. I understand Robert's opinion on primary sources but there's something not quite right here.

Come in Simon!

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Just had a thought if Strides killer, was the same man that did for Nichols, chapman, eddowes, then a good case could be made for that person not being kellys killer.
Why?
Being so broad shouldered, he would have taken ages to get through the passage of millers court, unless he took off his padded jacket....although George Chapman would have found it easy, and Fleming would obviously had to have crawled.
Just some idle thoughts, but the court dimensions are smaller then most people imagine.
Regards Richard.

[Steve S]

This 17' 10" business - can I just get some clarity here?

I can fully accept that 17' 10" would be from the western side of the Court to past the windows of #13, where the Court fence would join onto the back of #25 Dorset Street. If it was 7' 10", then it would indicate MJK's room was only a couple of feet wide.

Given that accounts generally regard her room as being 10' deep and 12' wide, can't we thus suppose the 17' 10" is correct and it is referring to the area that opened out on the right as soon as you had passed #13?

PHILIP

That's what I assumed...then the bit with the houses narrows some 2 foot in it's length form 7' 10" to 5 foot-ish.
Steve

[George Hutchinson]

This 17' 10" business - can I just get some clarity here?

I can fully accept that 17' 10" would be from the western side of the Court to past the windows of #13, where the Court fence would join onto the back of #25 Dorset Street. If it was 7' 10", then it would indicate MJK's room was only a couple of feet wide.

Given that accounts generally regard her room as being 10' deep and 12' wide, can't we thus suppose the 17' 10" is correct and it is referring to the area that opened out on the right as soon as you had passed #13?

PHILIP

[Stephen Thomas]

Unless there is a proven transcription error in the document I must accept it as is. Maps are not accurate down to the inch. Mr. Wrack's measurements are.

Hi Robert

Fair enough but I strongly suspect a transcription error here.

Stephen

[Suzi]

Not much Housework to do then?

Wassat?

[RJM]

Hi Stephen,

Unless there is a proven transcription error in the document I must accept it as is. Maps are not accurate down to the inch. Mr. Wrack's measurements are. Even with all of the maps there is still no consensus on the dimensions of Mary Kelly's room. There are limitations to the uses of maps.

What I would really like to see are Inspector Ledger's plans of Millers Court that he drew up for the inquest. There current whereabouts are unknown like many other pieces of evidence in the case.

Robert

[Stephen Thomas]

The distance of 7'10" referred to is accurate for the width after going through the arch and entering the court and is not a measurement from the pump and dustbin area wall on the east side of the court to the west side rooms. Mr Wrack from The Whitechapel Board of Works does not give that distance.

Hi RJM

If you look at any map or diagram of Millers Court you'll see that the width outside Mary's door is the same as at the top of the court ie 5'6" and cannot possibly be 7'10". On the other hand 17'10" makes perfect sense as the width from the pump to the houses opposite given the fact that the houses were 12 foot deep. The 17'10" measurement I got from Simon Wood in a couple of recent posts here so maybe Simon can resolve this problem.

Hi all-
It seems odd but not unnatural that the court would narrow towards the end ,Chris!

That double window Steve must have been 17 odd feet too- to accomodate those two windows!

A 12' x 12' (or close too)- room isn't actually that small- I just measured from where I'm sitting ( rather sadly!) in front of my PC in my front room [it did involve me lying on the floorr and hubby tearing himself away from Quatermass to get a tape measure...OMG!) ---- and 12' sq is a reasonable size- OK , it's a bit of my smallish living room and I wouldn't want to live in that little bit full time- but it was a damned sight better than sharing a bit of a bed in a common lodging house!

- Must have been 'luxury'!... A fireplace- a bed- a table and two windows..... Blimey! I reckon that's the size of a small single hotel room- without tea and coffee though!...kettle provided though!

Not much Housework to do then?

[RJM]

Hi RJM

The 'south end' of the court ie the area outside Mary's windows was 17 feet 10 inches wide, not 7 feet 10 inches wide as it says in the dissertation.

Somebody obviously used a tape measure for that.

And yes, Chris, the court was that narrow as per the drawing.

The distance of 7'10" referred to is accurate for the width after going through the arch and entering the court and is not a measurement from the pump and dustbin area wall on the east side of the court to the west side rooms. Mr Wrack from The Whitechapel Board of Works does not give that distance.