The Night She Died

[BLUE WIZZARD]

Chava,

You call someone Gareth are you referring to the son of Lot and of Morgause?

BW

[richardnunweek]

Hi Guys,
I have been accusing Barnett since day one, but if he was her killer, he had to have committed it in the daylight hours, as his nightime alibi was checked and verified
That is still not proven impossible, modern day medics will state that it would have been most unlikely that police doctors of that period given the circumstances, could have judged an accurate time of death, and would have relied on witnesses and intuition to arrive at an estimation.
Rather like the Annie chapman murder, do we discount all major witneses, such as Richardson,Mrs Long , and not forgetting Albert C.,we have to , if we take the police doctors estimation.
Rigor Mortis, is not even a science in the 21st century , let alone the nineteenth.
I would dearly love to know if Paul Harrison really interviewed a relation of Joseph Barnett, in a pub, and was shown original clippings from the press of 1888, dating from the murder of Tabram, till the murder of Mckenzie.
Paul was adamant that he saw those clippings, and that they had belonged to JB, in which case why start collecting weeks before the C5 started, only the real killer, would know that was to be start of a series, unless he happened to spot the Tabram report one day, and for some reason cut out the relevant section.
Why?
Was Paul being honest?
If so, Barnett is certainly a suspect.
Regards Richard.

[Sam Flynn]

You call someone Gareth are you referring to the son of Lot and of Morgause?

You keep my parents out of this...

[BLUE WIZZARD]

Sam,

If Lot and of Morgause are your parents, then you would be long gone by now.

Wie Sie wissen, dass es zur Zeit des Königs Arthurs war.

BW

[celee]

We're getting far afield on the Rent Arrears thread so I thought I'd establish this one.

The timeline, as I believe it is as follows:

8.00 pm. Joseph Barnett, her former live-in lover who visits her almost every day takes his leave of her and returns to his lodging house.

8-11.30 pm. She is seen drinking in pubs. She may have been the woman seen 'very drunk' in the Ringers with a well-dressed moustached man.

11.45 pm. Mary Ann Cox sees her going up the court with a moustached man carrying a pint of beer. This could well be the man referred to above. She commences to sing as soon as she goes into her room. She continues to sing for well over an hour. This is corroborated by a couple living above her. Cox leaves around midnight.

1-1.20 am. Lizzie Prater stands outside the entrance to Millers Court. She doesn't see or hear Kelly.

1.00 am. Cox returns for a warm-up. Kelly is still singing, and continues to sing as Cox leaves a few minutes later. We have no record of Prater confirming Cox's account of her movements, but it may be that Prater was never asked to do so, or it may be--and I think this is more probable--that she did confirm seeing Cox but there is no written record of this.

No one sees or hears Kelly's moustached companion leave.

However, if Cox's and Prater's evidence holds up, and there is no reason to doubt them, Kelly, if she left the court at all, did not leave until after 1.20 am.

2.00 am. George Hutchinson asserts that he sees Kelly in the area of Commercial St and Flower and Dean St. She hits him up for 6d, and when he declines, she says she must go and find some money. She then picks up a man Hutchinson had just passed and the two of them return to her room.
Hutchinson says he waited outside the court for 45 minutes but neither of the two appeared. He left.

2.30 am. Sarah Lewis enters the court and notices a man standing at the entrance looking up the court. She doesn't see or hear anything from #13.

3.00 am or thereabouts. Cox calls it a night. No light or sound coming from Kelly's room.

3-4.00 am? Lizzie Prater and Sarah Lewis hear a cry of 'oh murder!' coming from somewhere in the court.

10.45 am. Bowyer finds Kelly's body. Doctors put her time of death at around 2.30-3.30 am.


Now, for the record, I don't put any stock in the 'murder' cry. I don't think that has anything to do with the killing for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that Kelly would probably be dead by the time it was heard. Even if we believe Hutchinson's account, she went into her room with Mr Astrakhan at around 2.10 am and I doubt he'd keep her alive for upwards of 50 minutes before he killed her. I also don't think Kelly would have had the time to scream anything as articulate as that.

Also for the record, I don't think Kelly went out after she turned in with Blotchy Face. I suspect someone she knew paid her a visit after she had gotten undressed for bed and she unfortunately let him in. I also suspect this man had a relationship with Kelly such that she would not question his right to spend the night with her. I believe the poor woman let him in, turned and got back into bed.

Hi,

I feel that Joe and Mary probably fought the night she died. Joe probably became angry when he saw Maria with Kelly. Joe may have thrown the cloths that Maria brought over in the fire out of spite. Kelly probably told Joe that if he could not help out with the rent she would have to go out and earn the money on the streets. I suspect Joe mentiond the Ripper murders to scare her.

Cox's testimoney is important because she is the only witness who claimed to see any of the victims, who actually knew the unfortunate. She did not Identifiy kelly by her cloths. She actually knew Kelly spoke to her and saw her enter her room with a man. There can be no doubt that Cox saw Kelly. Her testimoney tells me that Kelly was working the streets and she was bringing her clients home. However, I do not believe the man that Cox saw with Kelly was Jack.

I feel Kelly was killed about 3:45 in the morning by a man who she brought home. This would rule out Hutchinson's man because the time fram would be off in my opinion. I have thought about the possibility that Kelly could have been killed by a man who drugged her first maybe with some urble medicine perhapes suposed to induce an abortion. A stretch I know but I would love to hammer Hutchinson's man in the picture. However, Kelly probably went back out after 3:00 in the morning and picked up her attacker.

Your friend, Brad

[BLUE WIZZARD]

timeline for a butcher

Philip,

You have a reputation there, as a tour guide, and I do not think that a question to the local butcher as to how long it would take for a butcher to do short work on Mary, would put you at risk as being the notorious Jack the Ripper.

Someone with the skill of a butcher, doing Mary.

If you are aware of a post that would clear this up, please direct me to it.

Thanks


BW

[BLUE WIZZARD]

Caroline Maxwell

Caroline Maxwell
From Jack the Ripper Wiki
Jump to: navigation, search
Witness at Mary Jane Kelly's inquest.
Wife of Henry Maxwell, a Lodging House deputy of 14 Dorset Street, Spitalfields.
In her initial statement, taken on 9th November 1888, she said she had known Kelly for about four months and believed her to be 'an unfortunate', earning her living in that way since Joseph Barnett had left her. Mrs Maxwell and Kelly were on speaking terms.
She saw Mary at the corner of Miller's Court between 8.00am and 8.30am on the morning of 9th November 1888, saying she was sure of the time as she was taking some plates her husband had borrowed back to the house opposite. She spoke to Kelly, asking her why she was up so early, to which Kelly replied that she had the horrors of drink upon her as she had been drinking for some days previously. Mrs Maxwell suggested she go and have a drink in 'Mrs Ringers' (The Britannia), but Kelly replied that she had already done so and brought it up, pointing to some vomit in the road. Maxwell left, saying that she pitied her feelings. From there she went on an errand to Bishopsgate.
On returning, Maxwell saw Kelly again at about 8.45-9.00am outside the Britannia talking to a man. He was about 30 years of age, stout of build, about 5ft 5ins tall and dressed like a market porter. As she was quite a distance away, she did not believe she would recognise him again. Kelly was wearing a dark dress, velvet body and a maroon shawl.[1]

At the inquest (12th November 1888), Maxwell was warned by Coroner Roderick MacDonald, stating "You must be very careful about your evidence, because it is different to other people's."[2] Her testimony added a few other details to her original statement; that she had only spoken to Mary twice; that the man seen with Kelly was wearing 'dark clothes and a sort of plaid coat'; that the man was not wearing a tall silk hat and that if he was, she would have noticed.[3]

Mrs. Maxwell said she had known Kelly for about four months, so a definite identification could be made as to whom she was talking to.

She saw Mary at the corner of Miller's Court between 8.00am and 8.30am on the morning of 9th November 1888, saying she was sure of the time as she was taking some plates her husband had borrowed back to the house opposite.

Returning plates her husband borrowed, is reinforcement for memory as to what date and time she saw Mary. Caroline was holding plates in her hands while talking to Mary about vomit on the sidewalk is a great reinforcement for memory.

On returning, Maxwell saw Kelly again at about 8.45-9.00am outside the Britannia talking to a man. Caroline saw Mary twice in the same day just approximately 15 minutes apart. Again another reinforcement for memory.

So the news about Mary’s death on the same day she saw her twice that morning, How could that cause confusion in her memory as to what day she saw Mary, Caroline was a respectable woman in the Community why would she lie?

At the inquest (12th November 1888), Maxwell was warned by Coroner Roderick MacDonald, stating "You must be very careful about your evidence, because it is different to other people's."

Did Roderick MacDonald say that to the other witnesses? It sounds like he was trying to intimidate her, after all, the time of death was deduced based on the “Oh Murder” statement” from the woman upstairs from Mary, because there was no rigor mortis to go by. Would that stand up in court today? Did she really hear Oh Murder or was she just looking for a little attention

BW

[c.d.]

Hi Blue Wizard,

Witnesses as well as people in general make mistakes. Memory can play tricks on a person. It is not uncommon. It happens to everyone. If she was mistaken as to the day she saw Mary, then she was NOT LYING. She was MISTAKEN. You don't want to accept that possibility. That is fine but you are beating a dead horse here. If you accept her testimony as being accurate, then you need an explantion as to how the doctors made a mistake in their estimate of time of death. They both can't be right.

c.d.

[perrymason]

By continually revisiting Carrie Maxwell and George Hutchinsons viability, what we are doing is attempting to see if their stories can be considered plausible, or perhaps corroberated by some other stories. We are doing that as if the investigation was left at that stage in time back then...as if the answers to those question hadnt already been arrived at by the people who actually met the witnesses, looked them in the eye, knew each step of the area and took their statements down in written hand. It would appear to me and many others that they were assessed...they were likely questioned aside from the Inquest, they had 3 days to assess Carrie Maxwell....by the third she was determined not to match with Dr Bonds data....at least.

George Hutchinsons story is given Monday night, and in 3 days, it was discarded, and the records reflected a suspect that matched in every way the man described by Mary Ann Cox at around 11:45pm on the 8th.

Its not clear whether they ever thought Carrie Maxwell might have value, in Georges case the opposite..he was thought to be a "break" in the case...but neither survived 3 days of scrutiny.

We know of witnesses that were called upon years after their original reports, even with no chance of having them ID anyone after all that time, but it is evidence that when they believed a witness they could stick with the witnesses story as long as it takes to solve the crime....much more than just 3 days.

Best regards all

[BLUE WIZZARD]

when you haven’t got an answer make one up

More than 40 years ago President JFK was assassinated, I remember exactly what I was doing and where I was in that time in space, because they tie together in my memory for the rest of my life.

Seven years ago the twin towers were attacked, I remember exactly what I was doing and where I was in that time and space, also I can remember the conversation with the person I was talking to at the time.

I guess that I'm talking 40 yrs and 7 yrs, not a couple of days, maybe our memory is better than the people of 1888

If a person that I knew was murdered is such a horrific way, I'm sure that I would remember when the last time I talked to him or her and the nature of the conversation as, and I do not believe that I would make any mistakes about the date or the time either. hey ask me the same question a month later. I'm sure you would get the same answer.

But of course if I happen to be interfering with the experts, when they are trying to timeline a crime site and are using the toss of a coin to decide the time of death, then of course by all means I would be wrong or mistaken about seeing or hearing anything a couple of hours ago.

Maybe it's just me.

The cops want to believe a woman who may or may not of heard "Oh murder". Did anyone else hear the "Oh murder" cry?

maybe the witness was sleeping with Jack Daniels.

BW

[celee]

Hi Blue Wizard,

Witnesses as well as people in general make mistakes. Memory can play tricks on a person. It is not uncommon. It happens to everyone. If she was mistaken as to the day she saw Mary, then she was NOT LYING. She was MISTAKEN. You don't want to accept that possibility. That is fine but you are beating a dead horse here. If you accept her testimony as being accurate, then you need an explantion as to how the doctors made a mistake in their estimate of time of death. They both can't be right.

c.d.

Hi,

I agree, she was mistaken not lying. I think that is the veiw the police took at the time. C.D. makes a good point witnesses are often make mistakes. I find it hard to believe that Kelly was killed after 8:30am and the doctors could be that far off about her time of Death.

Hutchinson was telling the truth. Abberline believed him. However, I do not believe that Abberline thought the man that George saw with Kelly was the ripper. George may not have told the whole truth, but I believe he saw Kelly with the man he described.

Your friend, Brad

[BLUE WIZZARD]

perrymason,

I understand your point about the interviews by the police and discarding the witnesses story.

The police in the year 1983 did the same with a man named Gary Ridgeway, they interviewed him about the killings and discarded him as a suspect, because he did not seem to fit the profile of a killer, Ridgeway looked as dangerous as Winnie the Poo.

You are familiar with the line "If it don't fit, you must acquit"

BW

[celee]

Hi,

There comes a point when common sence has to take over. Okay, it is hard to believe that the Ripper killed Kelly after 8:30am I am assuming around 9:00 in the morning. He did all that mutilation in such a short period of time, he escaped in daylight with out being seen and the doctors were so far off concerning time of Death. Not to mention the fact that Kelly was seen in the company of two men that night. A cry of murder was heard by two different witnesses around 3:45 in the morning. Unless it was not Kelly lying in the bed and I know some people believe this to be true, Maxwell's claim can not be true.

Your friend, Brad

[BLUE WIZZARD]

celee,

This was not a mistake about what color shoes she wore the day before.

This is a mistake about whom she saw and talked to the day she was holding plates that she was returning to her neighbor, and looking at vomit in the street while talking to the murdered victim, whom she had known for months, this woman has no reason to lie, look at it this way, she remembered that she had to return plates that her husband borrowed the day before. But she can't remember when she talked to Mary a few hours before.

The cops believe the "Oh Murder" cry, enough to mark the time of death by it.

Why would you believe that?
I hope not because they said so.

I believe her story about seeing Mary, and when she said she saw Mary, and this is not based on a coin toss.

BW

[perrymason]

perrymason,

I understand your point about the interviews by the police and discarding the witnesses story.

The police in the year 1983 did the same with a man named Gary Ridgeway, they interviewed him about the killings and discarded him as a suspect, because he did not seem to fit the profile of a killer, Ridgeway looked as dangerous as Winnie the Poo.

You are familiar with the line "If it don't fit, you must acquit"

BW

Hi BW,

First off 2 women heard the "oh-murder" and with enough variation in the volume it would appear Sarah was closer to it. Its harder to dismiss two such independent statements, by witnesses who are not as your Gary Ridgeway analogy reminds us, under suspicion of anything themselves.

The only thing Hutchinson might be suspected of once he gives his statement is as an innocent bystander in the wee hours, keeping watch after a friend... in perhaps a Wideawake Hat.

I dont deny your suggestion that in many cases we know of and lots Im sure we dont, the killer is interviewed at some point during or after the "spree", and is set free, without any evidence that links him to the crimes.

If I was a betting man like in my youth, Id wager a fair bit that the fella known as Jack The Ripper was questioned himself. Whether he killed everyone he's accused of is perhaps a factor why he didnt catch someones eye at the time.....maybe some suspects were cleared if they had alibis for 1,2 or 3 of the murders...because this was treated like a Canonical Series quite early on. I believe Pizer on one night had to rely on relatives statements...which then added up to his whereabouts being known on the pertinent dates. What if he actually killed on that one night...or after the murders he was brought in for?

Just an example.

Cheers BW.