The Night She Died

[Jon Guy]

Hello B.W.


Mrs Lilley of Bucks Row spoke to the press of noises she heard in the street around the time of Nichols death.But she was dozing and took no further notice.

Albert Cadoshe was in the yard next door to where Annie Chapman was killed and heard voices and a bump against the adjoining fence. Cadoshe assumed it was the guys who worked next door that made the noises.

It is my opinion that if it was Kelly who cried out it was because she was facing her attacker and he didn`t have the element of suprise on his side.

[perrymason]

It is my opinion that if it was Kelly who cried out it was because she was facing her attacker and he didn`t have the element of suprise on his side.

Or at least not for very long anyway Jon, she could have been awakened by the attack itself and just fended off blows as best she could, perhaps with her back to her attacker, twisting her left arm back to defend herself.

If she is facing away from him you have her back turned which allows for some surprise, and you have agreement with the blood evidence on the wall by the upper right of the bed. If she faced him, why did her artery then spray on the wall behind her? And if she faced him, why werent the apparent defensive wounds more evenly distributed between her left and right hand and arm? It was primarily her left that took the slashes it seems.

Best regards

[BLUE WIZZARD]

In some case histories the killers will leave the clothing neatly folded alongside the body as if to demonstrate not only their control over the helpless victim but a reverence for the act of undressing the victim carefully.

Arthur Shawcross, the killer himself would carve up the corpse according to his feelings for the victim.

He takes such items as clothing or body parts so he can masturbate later and satisfy himself.

Which could be why they did not fine evidence of ejaculate or any overt sexual activity on the victim or at the crime scene.

Some killers have been known to throw the victims cloths into a fire, to reinforce his control over the victim.

Joe just was not in control of Mary anymore. Until that night.

I think that Harvey could have enlightened that cops as to Joes nature, if they probed further.

Joe injected himself in to the investigation, as killers would do, to find out just how much the cops knew.

BW

[c.d.]

Hi Wizard,

I am not sure what you mean when you say Joe injected himself in to the investigation.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

sounds from the street outside did not carry through,and vice versa

I would have bet that was the case myself, (the part in bold), thanks for confirming that bit. It's relevant when considering how Elizabeth Prater came to her conclusion that the sound was "as from the court".

... for the same reason that I can hear noises - right now - that emanate "as from" the front of my house... despite the fact that I'm in the back room. We've been through this before, Mike!

It's perfectly possible (in fact, it's 100% certain) that sounds can and do carry through a house from fore to aft, and vice versa. Houses are hollow, and full of wind. As am I on occasion

[BLUE WIZZARD]

Jon,

Element of surprise is the key; why with his skill in cutting them up, did he not have the element of surprise?

I grew up in a very tough neighborhood and element of surprise was always there, if you were not looking and studying the person approaching you or walking behind you.

I have heard that the victim never knew what hit him, one night a victim was walking down a street when the man approaching was holding his knife in the wrist position, slashed at the victims throat immediately silencing his victim across the larynx, very fast no sound, just the body hitting the ground. He was stabbed a few times and robed. The killer was seen doing it, and the witness said the victim did not make a sound, no cry for help.

That was a surprise attack, why was Jack so clumsy as to make all that noise or allow the victim to make all that noise. Wasn’t he learning anything?

Hey my compliments on the accuracy and quick answers to my questions.

BW

[BLUE WIZZARD]

C.D.,

Reference to "injection"

Volunteer information, trying to help out, talking to cops, testing the water.

A lot of killers would get friendly with cops, to find out how close the cops are getting to him.

I would not be surprised if Jack was on that list.

BW

[c.d.]

Hi Wizzard,

Joe pretty much had no choice in the matter. He was interrogated by the police.

c.d.

[perrymason]

Hi Wizzard,

Joe pretty much had no choice in the matter. He was interrogated by the police.

c.d.

I agree with that....he is in fact one of the first possible suspects they would have looked at...maybe the first.

He didnt have to insinuate himself in on this one, he would have been intimately involved regardless of any innocence or guilt.

I believe 2 givens were used by Police when they first discovered this murder, one that the killer likely knew her assailant, and that 2, Jack the Ripper probably did it.

I think there is physical evidence that suggests the first "given" was probably correct, and that only the physical circumstantial evidence...that of the actual state of Mary Kellys body...is used to deduce the probable killer.

If she was made to appear "ripped".. by someone close and not Jack, then I believe he must have had some Hatred for her. Which is an emotion that surfaces in connection with Love quite often.

Best regards.

[Jon Guy]

If she is facing away from him you have her back turned which allows for some surprise, and you have agreement with the blood evidence on the wall by the upper right of the bed. If she faced him, why did her artery then spray on the wall behind her? And if she faced him, why werent the apparent defensive wounds more evenly distributed between her left and right hand and arm? It was primarily her left that took the slashes it seems.
Best regards

I may be wrong, Michael, but I picture the scenario where Kelly is attacked whilst she is on the bed which fits with the position of the arterial spray.

I am assuming that her left arm took the brunt of the defensive wounds as her right arm would have been held by the killer`s left hand,leaving his right hand holding the knife and Kelly only having her left arm free to defend herself.

[BLUE WIZZARD]

Joe pretty much had no choice in the matter. The police interrogated him.

I agree with that 100%, however, He volunteered his help on how to access the room by unlocking the door through the window. Why would he do that?
If you ask me I think he wanted the cops to see how Jack could have gained access.

And going to the police station voluntarily to be interview, I used the word volunteered because he was not asked to go to the police station.

Remember Joe needs to look like a victim, and to be a real nice guy and corporate with the police. Joe was hanging around Millers Court that morning when the cops discovered Mary. Maybe he had more money to give to Mary...(yeah right).


BW

[Jon Guy]

Hi B.W.

My opinion of course, but Joe seems an okay guy.

On the night of Kellys murder he was at his new lodgings playing cards with fellow lodgers. During the morning he stayed at the Lodging House until he heard of a murder in Dorset St and in the afternoon he walked around to Millers court where he stayed with police for a couple of hours.

Joe lived to a good old age without any problems. He worked regularly when he could and as far as I know didn`t have any other history with the Police.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Wizard,

I am not sure what you mean when you say Joe injected himself in to the investigation.

If he did, then it was after the night she died, so any discussion of the possibility best belongs on a "Suspects/Barnett" thread, rather this one.

[perrymason]

I may be wrong, Michael, but I picture the scenario where Kelly is attacked whilst she is on the bed which fits with the position of the arterial spray.

I am assuming that her left arm took the brunt of the defensive wounds as her right arm would have been held by the killer`s left hand,leaving his right hand holding the knife and Kelly only having her left arm free to defend herself.

Hi Jon,

So I guess you see the killer over Mary Kelly when he attacks her.....kind of hard to imagine that coming as a any surprise to Mary though...if hes holding her right arm down with his left hand, and slashing with his right hand...then whose keeping her mouth closed...since she is awake and alert in your scenario.

I believe her arterial spray is because her head and face were tilted upwards at the time, her left arm raised and bent to protect her face, ...but she was on her right side, and facing the wall. I believe its one bit of evidence that this killer may have been left handed....and it is an explanation that allows for a surprise attack from behind.

All the best Jon.

[BLUE WIZZARD]

Jon,

Did he say that he was playing cards at 3 and 4 in the morning?

Joe seems to be an OK guy, lived to a good old age without any problems. He worked regularly when he could and as far as I know didn't have any other history with the Police.

The fact that the police dismissed him, took a lot of stress off of him.

That is because he was not a serial killer, They were looking for Jack. After Mary's death all his anger and negative energy had left him, after all he got what he wanted, Mary's heart. I wonder if he ever woke in the middle of the night from nightmares about what he had done to Mary?
He valued his life more than the urge to confess.

This probably was the only time he killed. It is not unusual for that to happen, there has been confessions from people that have killed their wives made it look like an accident, and never killed again. And they have put them in woodchoppers or acid baths, cut them up and disposed of them in many ways.

If anyone has a picture of the burial of Mary, I’m curious who were there watching the lowering of the casket, this was a murder on the grand scale, where were the reporters taking pictures. If it exists then we have a picture of Joe Barnet.

People like Philip could do research on that.

BW