The Night She Died

[Chava]

Hello Perry Mason!

It was broken by MJK as far as I can recall!

All the best
Jukka

I think it was said to have happened during a fight with Barnett. I guess either one of them could have broken it. Apparently they fought a lot when they were drunk.

[perrymason]

I think it was said to have happened during a fight with Barnett. I guess either one of them could have broken it. Apparently they fought a lot when they were drunk.

Hi Chava, Jukka.....maybe I didnt make my point well enough, but there are 2 broken panes within that same window frame, (its made up of some 15 individual panes), and only one is at the perfect place to reach in and access the latch inside. The fight supposedly broke a window pane.....is it more likely they accidentally broke the one that is one the upper left of the window as seen from outside, or one that was broken in the lower right corner, nearest to the door....the one that is used from that point on to access the latch if the door was locked.

And with Chava and Sam discussing photo contents, it would be impossible to tell without Bonds notes that she had a long gash on her left calf, deep to inner muscles, from her knee to her ankle...or for that matter many of the wounds he mentioned including her right thumb, and "extensive" and "jagged" arm and forearm damage. He also said that "....the face hacked beyond recognition of the features", which to me doesnt single out eyes as being identifiable or intact, or ears, on which he says "nose cheeks, eyebrows and ears being partly removed". So how good is Barnetts eye and ear, eye and hair id anyway?

The point on that comment is that the photo doesnt really accurately reveal the actual state she was in...so perhaps not exactly how bedding and blankets factored in to her sleeping that night either.

Cheers all.

[BLUE WIZZARD]

Joe admitted to breaking the window...by accident, (if you want to believe that) how convenient he or she lost the key. If Joe were so concerned about Mary, why would he not have another key made for the lock? And fix the window. Maybe he had other plans in mind

Now he and Mary could have access to the room, now that Mary was dead who can argue anything Joe says?

What intrigues me is how matter of fact Joe seems to be about the whole thing.

Here is a guy talking like he was the victim all the time, saying that he left because Harvey, Mary's friend was staying with Mary and sleeping over, so no balls Joe will not throw Harvey out saying, hey I'm paying rent here, you leave, instead, poor Joe picks up and leaves, but wait Joe the victim tells the cops that he was still going over to give Mary money, Why would he do that? Yeah he wanted to keep her off the streets.

I think he just wanted the cops to know should they ask why he was still hanging around; I think Joe was stalking Mary, O.J. Simpson style with disguise and knife. What a nice guy, still looking after her welfare. That is BS.

There was no indication that Joe was upset at the time, he identified Mary by her eyes and ear. What the heck kind of ID was that anyway? How many men do you know that can tell the color of a woman’s eyes when asked? Some men cannot tell the color of their wife’s eyes after years of Marriage. And the ear ID, could he have identified the ear in a line up?

Is there anything written that Joe was in the least bit concerned about Mary? Other than making sure she had money. In which she seems to be in need of all the time.

This is what I think, for what it's worth.

1) Joe was insanely jealous of Mary; Joe had to be the talk of the town with a 25-year-old good-looking babe on his arm.

2) Argued loudly and for all we know may have hit Mary

3) Joe has to leave because Mary decides to let a friend sleep over, why would she put Joe out like that? Could she have been afraid of Joe?

4) Joe stalks Mary; just by hanging around is a form of stalking

5) Joe knows how to open the door from the window

6) Joe is always around, even though he is living at his sister’s house.

7) Joe is out of work and loosing control of Mary, and loosing control of himself.

A question: The woman upstairs heard "Oh Murder" and no one else heard it?

Is she looking for her moment of fame, or did she doze off and hear "Oh Murder" in her sleep? Personally I believe she was lying.

People hear sounds and voices or maybe just one word in their sleep, and would swear that they heard it while they were awake. Jack was on the mind of a lot people at the time.

And if the cops think that is a good timeline for the moment of death. If they really believe that, I have some swamp property to sell those guys.

BW

[perrymason]

Hi BW,

Youve touched on a few items that are starting to bug me about Barnett as well. I believe the fact that there are two panes actually broken makes the one that is very convenient for accessing the latch inside more likely an intentional break by someone who used the room and forgot they left it off the latch when they left earlier, or someone who was trying to unlock the room for another reason.

Could Barnett and Marys fight have caused Barnett to break that window as a means to get at her while she was locked inside? Is he someone more prone to actions like that than we imagine him to be. Would Mary have confided in anyone about Barnetts possible temper more than Maria while she lived there? And is Maria's desire to stay with Mary until she is sure Barnett and her are getting along on Thursday night an indication that Mary feared being alone with him?

A possible motive for his hatred of her street work is jealousy, a possible motive for the murder of Mary Kelly also includes that emotion.

All the best.

[c.d.]

Blue Wizard and Michael,

I think you are getting a tad carried away here guys. It sounds like you are writing a pilot for the daytime soaps..."does Joe know about Mary's secret past?", "can Mary confide in Maria?"; "has Joe been completely honest with Mary and why does she secretly fear him?" "does the pane of glass hold all the answers?" Tune in next week, same time, same station.

c.d.

[Nemo]

....and it was Barnett outside the court but he paid Hutchinson £5 to say that it was him and that he saw astrakhan man...

[BLUE WIZZARD]

Perrymason,

I do not think that the window was broken in one of their heated arguments,
As you said what a coincident that the window just happened to be broken so that they could reach in to unlock the door. Again Mary is not there to dispute anything Joe is saying.

What if Joe were planning this for a while, he will loose the key on purpose, because Mary may have been the one that carried the key all the time, and Joe had to knock on the door for access, only if Mary was home, otherwise he would have to wait for her to arrive. Just another thing to add fuel to anger.

Now just one key is an inconvenience to Joe, so the key turns up missing and Joe has to knock the windowpane out for access to the room. Now that helps with his plan, if he cannot have Mary then no one else will. Sorry to jump the gun with that.

You see if Joe had a key and Mary had a key, Joe would be the most likely suspect, so breaking the window looks like someone with out a key came in, and Joe could not wait to tell the cops how easy it was to unlock the door from the window.

I believe Joe did not loose the key and had it in his pocket all the while, why take a chance of waken Mary by reaching in to the open window, when it was much easer to unlock the door with a key and much quieter. And as you said before it could have been a habit to lock the door after leaving. Just letting it shut and the lock snap closed may bring attention to him leaving.

In my mind the killer was very calm in executing his crime by the way in which he laid parts out, but not all parts were laid out, some were thrown about, I am amazed that he did not step on any of it, because no foot prints were found. Or was that kept out of print so the killer would not dispose of his shoes?

BW

[BLUE WIZZARD]

Nemo,

Do you believe Hutchinson was paid £5 to lie?

Joe was not hiding the fact that he was around, after all he was just concerned about Mary.

[Nemo]

Hi Blue Wizzard - I agree with most all of your points against Barnett - he is the most likely killer of Mary I think, whether he is the Ripper or not

I like to consider all possibilities whether the evidence exists or not - I think it is necessary to speculate - to open new trains of thought or lines of enquiry.

I was just wondering if Joe Fleming would pass for Blotchy. If Barnett called at No.13 around 2am (unseen) to find Mary with Blotchy (Fleming) and he tells Blotchy to leave. Blotchy would be concerned about Mary and so wait outside the court - but all was quiet and nobody came out, so he went on his way.

This would tie in with some speculations in other current threads that Joe Fleming may have given an alias to the police of George Hutchinson and fabricated an Astrakhan man.

Basically, Fleming had to lie about his reasons for being outside the court but he may have been afraid to "grass" on Barnett - other possible witnesses to the Ripper had expressed fear of the Ripper finding and killing them - receiving threatening letters to that effect

His knowledge of who killed Mary (and if Barnett was not the real Ripper in this scenario he may still have told Fleming he was, to instil fear in him) and the fright of possibly being hanged for the Whitechapel murders himself, may have accelerated his ensuing madness.

He would have been the one identifiable as the last person to enter Mary's room (Blotchy) and also the man seen waiting outside (Hutchinson) so nobody would believe him if he blamed Barnett.

The silence could be because Barnett killed her quickly.... etc etc

Total speculation of course...

I am not expert at all but I believe that there is little or no evidence that Hutchinson received £5 although it has been mentioned

[c.d.]

All speculation of Barnett as Mary's killer aside, let's keep in mind that he was questioned by the police at length and his body and clothes carefully examined. Does this mean that he could not have been her killer? Of course not, but I still think it carries a lot of weight.

No need to post examples of other killers who have been questioned by the police and then let go. We know it happens.

[perrymason]

Hi cd,

Not all the questions posed are viable, just within the bounds of possibility IF the broken pane that accessed the latch on the inside of the door was broken for that reason....by anyone.

There are 2 broken panes, and since only one pane is mentioned as broken by anyone, and its the one that happens to be in a perfect location to reach in and access the latch,..I suspect it was the 2nd, not mentioned pane that was broken during a row. I suspect the "handy" pane was made intentionally.

As to who made it, and why....?....but any questions asked thus far pertain to that particular aspect of the crime scene.

I think if we look closer at the evidence, there is suggestion that they have physical fights, and that Mary may have feared being alone with him even after he had moved out. Maria hesitated to leave when Joe arrived Thursday night, based on that premise.

How do we know that he wasnt asked to leave in the first place because of that temper.

I think Blue Wizzard makes a good point, what we know of Marys relationship with Joe, why he leaves, and whether he has threatened her since is information that only he provides. So the police later got their background on things between them from the same source.

Best regards.

[c.d.]

Hi Michael,

I think there may be hope for you after all, my friend. An actual post where you speculate instead of if it ain't a fact I ain't interested. Keep it up. (Now where are those damn smiley faces?)

c.d.

[perrymason]

Hi Michael,

I think there may be hope for you after all, my friend. An actual post where you speculate instead of if it ain't a fact I ain't interested. Keep it up. (Now where are those damn smiley faces?)

c.d.

I really dont object to any questions cd...I only object when I believe there are no grounds to even ask it. In this case, we do have 2 broken panes, one with undeniable advantage to people who have lost a key, without a clear indication of how it was made in the first place...as Joes story that the window pane was broken during a fight doesnt answer who broke it and how, from which side, and whether it was the lower or upper broken pane. Because there were 2 broken.

Theres more than enough wiggle room there I think for some speculatin'.

Cheers cd.

[BLUE WIZZARD]

Nemo,

I do not believe that Joe was Jack the Ripper, but a man with murder and anger for Mary.

This crime with the missing windowpane seems like a worked out plan on Joe’s part to kill Mary.

Joe would not have compromised his identity by confronting Blotchy and telling him to leave, Joe hid in the shadows waiting for a clear shot at Mary, he may have thought Blotchy could take the fall sense he was the last person to see her alive.

As far as bloody cloths and shoes, he probably burned them when he got back to his sisters house.

And as for the cops interviewing him, he was very calm about everything, cops were looking for Jack the ripper and as far as they were concern Joe was not Jack.

Joe’s demeanor is what makes me suspect him. He reminded me of OJ and Scott Peterson, very calm about the death of their loved ones. As if their death did not matter, what mattered to them were how many problems they had.

BW

[Sam Flynn]

Gareth, I was certain it was a stocking as well. But when I look at the whole picture, I'm not so sure any longer. If you look closely at the picture it looks as if her right leg is lying on top of material that is not the under-sheet and is part of whatever is draped over the blanket.

Personally, Chava, I think it's far too regular (and narrow) in outline for it to be a spontaneous outcrop of bed-sheeting.