The Night She Died

[Sam Flynn]

When he paid her she would have put the money in a pocket in her dress.

Whatever happened to "put the money on the table"?

Good observations, Rob, nonetheless.

[Ben]

with the blanket rolled up and her pillow on a table.

I doubt Kelly herself was responsible for either of those things, though, Gareth. Not that I think the blanket was "rolled up".

[Sam Flynn]

I doubt Kelly herself was responsible for either of those things, though, Gareth.

Why would the killer move the bolster from the bed and place it neatly on the table, though? Why didn't he chuck the blanket on the floor?

Not that I think the blanket was "rolled up".

However you look at it, Ben, it certainly wasn't in an "unfurled" configuration:

[Ben]

Why would the killer move the bolster from the bed and place it neatly on the table, though?

Could have been there for days, Gareth. The salient point is that Kelly's head was found resting on a pillow at the time of her death, as we learn from pictorial evidence. I don't think it particularly significant that the killer didn't hurl the over-blanket to the floor. It was either that or bunching it up and shoving it off to one side, and from the zoomed image you kindly provided, it seems the killer opted for the latter option.

Best regards,
Ben

[Chava]

Why didn't he chuck the blanket on the floor?

I've no idea how old you are, Gareth, but I'm old enough to remember all-wool blankets. They are cumbersome and they are fairly difficult to drag. Especially when wet. They are rough and they snag on things. If she was covered or semi-covered with the blanket, and he wanted it off her, as I've said above, the easiest way would be to throw the long side nearest him back over the other so it's now folded in half lengthways. It would be easier to deal with half the blanket than the whole blanket. Then, still using the hand you've used for that, which would be the left hand, throw the bottom edge up. Now reach up and throw the top edge down over the bottom. Now simply hit it to roll it away from you using your left hand. And voila! No fuss, no muss, no noise when the blanket hits the ground. No getting up to drag the damn' thing off the bed and maybe slipping and hitting something and making a noise. Dead silent. And the blanket is out of the way... The whole operation takes 15 seconds tops.

[Sam Flynn]

I've no idea how old you are, Gareth, but I'm old enough to remember all-wool blankets.

I do remember them, Chava. Whether I do or not is irrelevant, if the proposal is that the killer would even bother to roll it up, place it neatly between the bottom of the bed and the partition, and (possibly) drape her sock over it - as against flinging it to one side so he could get on with his destruction of the body. If only he'd lavished as much care on Kelly's pelvic mutilations, we'd perhaps not have had to endure speculation about split femurs and baphomets in recent years.

[perrymason]

I think Michael feels that if the murder cry was from Kelly, then those who overheard it - especially Prater - should have then heard a tremendous struggle going on, bed creaking, perhaps kelly's right leg kicking against the partition etc. While it does appear that the murder was bungled, with the blood spurting up the wall, we should remember that Kelly had been drinking, it was very late, and she was used to getting up late - so maybe she wasn't exactly primed for action.

Hi all,

I was asked about this point by a few people, and I thought I would use Roberts correct assumption to help illustrate it.

Without raising any tangential issues, Elizabeth Prater said she could hear when Mary moved about in her room. Although it is not qualified by Elizabeth as being in her room at the time, it doesn't seem to be connected by her to be from the location that she can or cannot see light when climbing the stairs, between "partition" cracks.

When Diddles wakes her, and she hears "oh-murder...as from the court", she is not fully awake.. but is still to the best of her ability at the time trying to listen for more cries or noise. She says as much herself. For curiosity or concern...take your pick.

There is no further noise.

Sarah Lewis hears the voice "as if at the door", and based on her location at that time, in a unit directly opposite Marys door, the voice could then have been Marys by the geography. No other courtyard witness claimed to make that call out, and no non-resident came forward. If a "faintish cry" heard clearly as such by Elizabeth is followed by an immediate assault on Mary...my contention is that the sounds would be audible, perhaps by both ear witnesses,... the furniture such as the bed sliding on the floorboards...which for all we know, might have creaked like the dickens, muffled screams or bumps about.

So my position is that the cry, if from Mary herself, does not seem to be asserting or conveying any mortal danger as imminent and is not followed by any attack noises, which would by Marys wounds be at least a physical struggle with the victim while she was still able to resist....the evidence to support that is that the cry is "faintish", not scary enough to convince either ear witness it merited much consideration,..and its followed by silence.

Therefore, if correct, we have Mary awake at that moment, and uttering a faintish cry that to one ear witness sounded just like what can be heard many nights in that area. If the attack doesnt begin at the moment she cries out...and there is no evidence that suggests it in fact did, then to surprise Mary means she needed to be facing away from him,..like the previous 4 likely were, or she needs to be asleep.

If she was awakened to a visitor, utters a comment, then either gets back in bed facing away from him or undresses with her back turned to him...she is still awake in both scenarios. But... the evidence doesnt suggest that the attack started anywhere but on her bed... towards the upper right by the partition wall anyway.

Sure he can still surprise her...but only when she is on the bed undressed and in the position the attack commences with. And that is a consistent position with having her back turned to the room, and her facing the wall on the bed.

My contention is that the above factors do not suggest that she was in her room with a man that she did not know, and they suggest she may have shown him "trust" by turning her back to him, perhaps even dozing off that way.

Best regards all.

[perrymason]

If....as we already have evidence to prove,...the killer wanted Marys head propped up for whatever reason, ...the breast....then it doesnt make sense for him to have moved he bolster. Why move one head support only to replace it with her breast.

It was likely plopped there by Mary when she intended to sleep...Ive got a long rectangular pillow on my bed when made as well as a bunch of other pillows....a habit developed by an ex girlfriend ...and when I am going to sleep, I plunk it down beside my bed, so its left lying by the head of the bed. As it is in Marys picture...only on a table.

Best regards all.

[Chava]

Whether I do or not is irrelevant, if the proposal is that the killer would even bother to roll it up, place it neatly between the bottom of the bed and the partition, and (possibly) drape her sock over it -

Wait a second. Where do you see 'neatly' in that photo? And where do you see the bottom of the bed? It's on the side of the bed, resting against the wall. Let's not sneak words in that bolster (ba boom!) the argument but have no basis in fact. The blanket is rolled up and against the wall. It's not 'neatly' rolled either.

We don't know what that white thing is but I think I know how it got there. It's likely a stocking. And it's likely that Kelly kind of shucked it off while she was under the blanket and in bed. It caught on the underside of the blanket, and when the blanket was rolled, so was the stocking. I told you those things snagged on stuff. Well this time it snagged on the stocking. Which stuck to the underside of the blanket and rolled with it.

[richardnunweek]

Hello,
At least on this thread agreement on two factors seem apparent.
a] The presence of a bolster slung on the table.
b] The possibility of a sock/stocking wrapped around the bedroll.
This at last is using ones eyes, and not suggesting that the object on the table is Kellys flesh[ which is surely laughable]
also clearly the tapered cloth around the bedroll has all the shape of a sock.
The latter if the case, would suggest that Kelly was in her final stages of undress, and a case can be put that she had just removed her left sock with her right hand, and had twisted to her right to place the item on the bedroll, when her assailiant took his opportunety.
It has to make sense that if Mary was awake and in that small room with her killer, he would have to strike at a moment she was not facing him direct, to avoid her yelling out in full vocal tones.
It is clear to me by the positioning of the boots that they were placed there by design, ie. close to a fire to dry, that being the case most likely by the victim, also the bedroll would suggest that at her time of death her blankets were not required, therefore an intruder scenerio seems most unlikely, and my suggestion of a later murder becomes more plausable.
Why we still assume that Mary Kelly met her end during the hours of darkness, is the logical solution, is a point I cannot agree with.
Does a body lying on a bed, with just a undersheet, and wearing just a chemise, and a right stocking, and her bedroll rolled up against the petition wall, suggest a night time slaying?
Well for one this detective, would not agree...
Regards Richard.

[FrankO]

Why would the killer move the bolster from the bed and place it neatly on the table, though?

Hi Gareth,

Why would he do anything he did on that bed? There’s simply no way of knowing who actually put the blanket and bolster where and how they were photgraphed. Furthermore, we can only see a rather small part of the complete blanket, which makes it hard to decide if the complete blanket was neatly folded, rolled or whatever.

Another thing to consider is that the bed was moved away from the partition before the photographs were taken. So, the blanket could easily been lying against the partition originally, partly making it slide beside the bed when moving it away from the wall. Or the photographer, one of the doctors or a police officer could have moved it to some extent.

Also, since Mary Jane’s killer was the last person alive in her room before she was found the way she was, it’s seems more likely that he was responsible for the condition of the bed and table. It’s perfectly feasible that he just pushed, threw or flung the blanket aside and out of the way. As for the bolster, he had also placed a number of bodily items on the table, so why not a bolster?

All the best,
Frank

[Ben]

Hi Richard,

also the bedroll would suggest that at her time of death her blankets were not required, therefore an intruder scenerio seems most unlikely

What's a "bedroll"?

The intruder scenario is not most unlikely. If the blankets were not required by Kelly, she'd have shoved them off to one side rather that rolling and compacting them into the smallest bundle imaginable as though she were heading off to CCF camp. That doesn't make sense in any scenario, from intruder to Mr. Astrakhan. It's more likely that the sheet was simply bunched up and shoved aside, most probably by the killer.

Hi Mike,

Surely the fact that the cry was described as "faintish" has more to do with the location of Prater's room in relation to Kelly's? Lewis, as you correctly note, lived directly opposite the court, and she believed the cries were louder. I've no doubt that the cry signified the beginning of the attack, and that "murder" provides the best clue in that regard.

Best regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

Wait a second. Where do you see 'neatly' in that photo? And where do you see the bottom of the bed? It's on the side of the bed, resting against the wall. Let's not sneak words in that bolster (ba boom!) the argument but have no basis in fact. The blanket is rolled up and against the wall. It's not 'neatly' rolled either.

I didn't say it was neatly rolled. I said it was neatly placed between the bottom of the bed and the wall... as opposed to "roughly rolled up and chucked there".

I think you'll find that everything I said apropos the blanket has plenty of bases in fact.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Ben,
Sorry for the wrong term, what I was attempting to point out was, as the blanket appeared to be rolled, it signified to me that kelly had not intended to sleep at the point that she was killed, indicating that she was about to service a client, therefore a intruder scenerio would not be likely.
Taking that view, and taking the last witness to have claimed to have seen her alive [Maxwell] account, we have the extreme possibillity of kelly rolling up the blanket herself on awakening.
I appreciate that would go against medical opinion, but Mrs Maxwell did that did she not?
Regards Richard.

[Chava]

I think you'll find that everything I said apropos the blanket has plenty of bases in fact.

I think you'll find that you and I and everyone else on this board have precisely the same information and draw their inferences accordingly. If you show me a picture of a folded/rolled-up blanket in situ and that is all you have, then you cannot tell me how it got there. It may have rolled there in a struggle. It may have been placed there before a struggle. It may have been placed there after a struggle. It may have come to rest there during a struggle. You don't know. Neither do I. We are simply looking differently at the same photograph.