the Rent arrears

[Jon Guy]

.
So - about the rent arrears?

Sam, I did address the issue a couple of posts back, my friend.

[Sam Flynn]

Sam, I did address the issue a couple of posts back, my friend.

You did indeed, Jon, but I was responding to your single-sentence post on the subject of brothels in Spitalfields, which came after it.

[Chava]

The thing is, Gareth, that the rent arrears and the discussion as to whether she went out on the game that night, or went out on the game at all, are all subjects that intertwine. She owed a substantial amount of back rent. How did she intend to pay it? If she was whoring, she should have been able to at least pay some of it. Kudzu clearly has her going out 'to find some money' in the small hours.

I can't tell you that Prater and Cox were in arrears as well because I don't know and neither does anyone else. It may be that McCarthy just let the rooms and did the best he could to collect rent. But Kelly owed 29s and that's a lot of money to run up on a rent bill with no tenant's protection if the landlord wanted her out. She is often mentioned by Barnett, Mrs Phoenix etc as being someone who drank too much and became quarrelsome when drunk. It's possible, in fact it's probable that she spent some time on the game while she lived in Whitechapel. But given the rent arrears, the fact that she seemed to spend every bit of money she was given by Barnett etc, the fact that she was clearly seen drinking in pubs on the night she died, I think she had a drunkard's trust in Tomorrow and didn't think beyond her next glass of gin. She may have cunningly managed to get McCarthy onside by the use of her well-publicized charms, but even that, I suspect, was an exceptionally temporary arrangement.

Of course a drunken, belligerent Mary Jane Kelly who had been complicit in the murders and mouthed off to her partner in crime at the wrong moment might just turn herself from a predator into a victim in the blink of an eye. Which means that Blotchy Face may still be in my frame. I'm not saying this is my New Theory. But given that we've seen 2 examples in the last 40 years of exceptionally murderous women who worked with their men, I'm not going to discount that possibility.

[Sam Flynn]

The thing is, Gareth, that the rent arrears and the discussion as to whether she went out on the game that night, or went out on the game at all, are all subjects that intertwine.

Absolutely - but there's no need to revisit at length the hoary old arguments about Prater's testimony, or Cox, or Pickett - they belong to an entirely different debate. What those other people did, saw or heard that night cannot possibly have had any bearing on whether Kelly was in arrears, and if or why McCarthy tolerated that state of affairs.

Kudzu clearly has her going out 'to find some money' in the small hours.

Kudzu hutchinsonii does. Kudzu "she-stayed-in-after-one-o-clockii" says otherwise. At least the "hutchinsonii" sub-species is known to have had its roots in the area at the time, whereas its close relative is a more recent mutant, but no less invasive if given the chance!

[Chava]

Kudzu hutchinsonii does. Kudzu "she-stayed-in-after-one-o-clockii" says otherwise. At least the "hutchinsonii" sub-species is known to have had its roots in the area at the time, whereas its close relative is a more recent mutant, but no less invasive if given the chance!

Yes, but see how cleverly I avoided its tentacles!

I'll agree to disagree with you on the importance of Prater's and Cox's work habits.

And I'll just point out something which we all know. And that is every one of the victims was in drink on the night she died. Of course they were probably in drink every night, but still...

I wonder if he finds 'em in the pub and stalks 'em afterwards.

And I shall deftly avoid the Thread Police by pointing out that it was in the pub that Kelly undoubtedly drank all the money that she should have...

wait for it...

...spent on the rent.

[perrymason]

At least the "hutchinsonii" sub-species is known to have had its roots in the area at the time, whereas its close relative is a more recent mutant, but no less invasive if given the chance!

.....and so far its only that one story that was dismissed as being not worthy of belief,.. 120 years ago.

Rent arrears as a catalyst for street whoring....sure, wheres the evidence in Marys case....Rent Arrears as incentive to work hard at her "job",...she is singing indoors drunk when a known "street woman" in her court is actively coming and going seeking clients the night before rent was to be collected, ...Rent Arrears as having some manipulative connections with McCarthy, not in evidence or in any statements, ..Rent Arrears as a life style, leading often to eviction,....well, by George... there is evidence that supports that.

The rent arrears is a non-starter in terms of the investigation of Marys murder, because its quite clear that she hadnt changed from her previous pattern of falling behind and getting the boot eventually. Its nothing that would motivate her to do some street whoring in the rain obviously, as we can see in the case of Mary Ann.....because its far from obvious that she ever left the room after midnight.

Best regards all.

[Sam Flynn]

Rent Arrears as a life style, leading often to eviction,....well, by George... there is evidence that supports that.

True, Mike, but we have no evidence that such wasn't the experience of every single resident of Miller's Court. As I've said, we have to be very wary of reading too much into Kelly's story, because her history, desperately patchy as it is, is thrown into artificial relief by her having been a victim of the Ripper. We have no reason to believe that she would have behaved differently than anyone else "of her class" (to use Dew's words), whether in arrears or no.

The rent arrears is a non-starter in terms of the investigation of Marys murder

Indeed, Mike - but perhaps not for the reason you give. The real reason is that she was in debt hours, days, weeks before she was killed - it could not possibly have had a direct bearing on her murder.

because its quite clear that she hadnt changed from her previous pattern of falling behind and getting the boot eventually.

We have one incident from her and Barnett's past. Even in terms of the sporadic strobe illuminating the events at Miller's Court, that's little more than a flicker. Certainly it's not enough evidence on which to base claims for a pattern.

Its nothing that would motivate her to do some street whoring in the rain obviously

Can't see what's "obvious" about it, Mike - I didn't know the woman and neither did any of us. Sometimes it pays to reflect on the fact that our sometimes over-familiarity with Ripper victims is based on foundations considerably less stable than sand.

[c.d.]

The rent arrears is a non-starter in terms of the investigation of Marys murder, because its quite clear that she hadnt changed from her previous pattern of falling behind and getting the boot eventually. Its nothing that would motivate her to do some street whoring in the rain obviously, as we can see in the case of Mary Ann.....because its far from obvious that she ever left the room after midnight.Hi Michael,

My friend, I am always amazed at how things are either black or white in your world. The rent arrears is a non-starter unless:

McCarthy had made it clear to her that he wouldn't let things slide like before when Barnett was around to contribute to the rent; or

Mary was aware that McCarthy was pissed at her for some reason, some possible slight perhaps and that her days there were numbered unless she came up with the money; or

not surprisingly McCarthy wanted his damn money and was simply fed up with her being late; or

Mary wanted to show Barnett that she could handle things by herself and had no need of his money.

All possible scenarios as I see it and there are probably a lot more. I therefore can't see the rent issue as a non-starter.

c.d.

[c.d.]

And let us not forget that it was not simply the rent at issue. Food, drink and the other necessities of life require money as well.

c.d.

[perrymason]

And let us not forget that it was not simply the rent at issue. Food, drink and the other necessities of life require money as well.

c.d.

I agree my friend, and as we can see with Mary Kelly, she went out with nothing more than the few coins given to her by Maria that day and she came home staggering drunk, and died fed. Without any evidence that a "trick" or song as a substitute was needed in payment for her food or drink, and we know she needed none for her bed that night.

Once again Ill state the obvious, Mary was in a far better position to acquire a client anytime than most other street whores, being half the age of the other Canonicals for example, and pretty by all accounts,.... yet we see that she spends the night before rent will be collected going out, getting drunk, and singing when she gets home before midnight....while a woman who is by all accounts not attractive, nor as young and marketable, but in the same line or work makes numerous attempts to get just one client. We also can note that Mary was given the opportunity to bring men into her room since Barnett had left......and the single instance that we know of is Blotchy Faced Man, whom she sings to.

So with that going for her, and no shortage of dockers and immoral men, why is it that she is ever out of her own money, and why would she not be able to cover a modest rent on her own income? Let alone with the financial assistance of the men in her life. Maybe even while supporting them.

If her opportunities for work income were ample, yet her income was less than she needed to just feed and clothe herself, perhaps in part due to an alcohol addiction,...it can safely be suggested that she didnt work regularly, for extended periods of time, and that she showed little or no concern about being in debt.

If arrears wasnt enough in the past to spur her to some last minute action to save herself from perhaps a known eviction that was pending, why would an imagined one this time be more compelling?

Best regards cd, and Happy Holidays.


editted to add: I think the reason you feel I am so Black and White on some issues is because of this.....a solution that is plausible, that fits with known evidence and characters and that has some evidentiary support.... need not be set aside in order to explore a myriad of possibilities and options that have no foundation or support in the historical records. If a solution fits the evidence when others dont, then Ill stand behind the one that does...until or unless it is shown to be inaccurate.

[perrymason]

Marys income of course would always be related to the income base of her clientele, so per event... not a lot of money, but a woman like her who wanted extra money could have made it by staying out at night and taking men that might have settled for Mary Ann, if they were out looking too long.

Im sure someone has the "trick" prices handy, calculate 1 per hour, over a 10-12 hour night, 7 days a week....then take away her rent money. Is she broke? Can she still buy food, maybe even a drink or two? You might say "those are some aggressive numbers pal", well I didnt even include income that she might have made renting her room during the day, as has been suggested.

Best regards all.

[Sam Flynn]

If her opportunities for work income were ample, yet her income was less than she needed to just feed and clothe herself, perhaps in part due to an alcohol addiction,...it can safely be suggested that she didnt work regularly, for extended periods of time, and that she showed little or no concern about being in debt.

No we CAN'T suggest that, Mike, and certainly not "safely". We know next to nothing about this woman. Worse, we can't even be sure about her name!

[Sam Flynn]

a woman like her who wanted extra money could have made it by staying out at night and taking men that might have settled for Mary Ann

... Cox. Well, she seemingly didn't have much success that night, but it didn't stop her. Hardly surprising, poor thing, considering that the Star described her as "a wretched specimen of East End womanhood".

[Simon Wood]

Hi Sam,

Only six posts to go and you'll be a 2008 legend.

Happy New Year.

Regards,

Simon

[ianincleveland]

... Cox. Well, she seemingly didn't have much success that night, but it didn't stop her. Hardly surprising, poor thing, considering that the Star described her as "a wretched specimen of East End womanhood".

Were they on about her looks or her lifestyle though??? Dont forget late victorians were far more moralistic about prostitutes than most of us are now.They could well have meant she was "wretched" in the way shed sunk to make ends meet.i could be wrong but ive never seen an actual physical description of Mary Ann Cox in 1888.