the Rent arrears

[Sam Flynn]

<lots of very good points snipped> She was never a street whore before, so why would she start now?

Good post, Chava, although we never hear of Kelly doing anything else, such as selling flowers, menthol cones or sieves, running a coffee shop or charring - unlike the other victims, who covered that spectrum of occupations and more besides.

Apart from her time with Joe Fleming - who, as a plasterer and assuming he was in work, would have been among the "top earners" (God help him!) in his class - there is little in the way of evidence to support the notion that she was a "kept woman". Despite some assertions to the contrary, it isn't axiomatic that Joe Barnett would have been flushed with cash as a fish porter, besides which their joint incomes certainly suffered a major dent when Barnett lost his job.

Under the circumstances, I find it hard to imagine that a woman who had been a prostitute before, and who still had her own teeth, wouldn't have capitalised on her experience and looks to make ends meet (if you pardon the expression). Apart from supposition, we at least have Walter Dew's account (approach with caution) of Kelly parading her street-beats; and it's undeniable that Kelly's death certificate records her occupation as a "Prostitute". Had she not followed that way of life for any appreciable time before her death, I'm sure that Barnett, as informant, would have insisted on something less pejorative if he felt he had grounds for doing so.

As to your point about her seeking out the nearest brothel, rather than walking the streets - it's little-known, but there were actually very few brothels in the area, and most East End prostitutes and "unfortunates" (I make the distinction) had little option but to work out of doors. Kelly might have thought of heading back West, but never got round to it - or maybe she'd fallen so far in her standards and/or appearance that she knew they'd never take her back.

[Chava]

Hi Richard!

I agree there is a ton of anecdotal evidence that suggests she knew, was comfortable with and consorted with prostitutes. But there isn't nearly as much to suggest that she was actively on the game. Mrs Cox's niece sees her go back to her room more than once with some alcohol and a man in tow but there is nothing there to suggest that she solicited them for prostitution. She went back to her room with Blotchy Face and some alcohol, but she clearly didn't treat him as a client. She sang to him instead. And arcane predelictions aside, the encounter that Cox described sounds like a drunk woman who is going to belt out a couple of tunes because she is feeling no pain whatsoever. I honestly doubt that she was singing that rubbish because BF requested it specially. I imagine she picked up said sailors in pubs and brought them back with her along with the alcohol they had probably purchased, and fun was had by all. I do think she could be had for the price of a bottle of gin. And I do not think she had any objections for being paid for her services. But there really isn't much that's reliable that has her out walking the streets looking for punters. Which is really the issue here. Because if she was, then it's eminently likely that she picked up the wrong trick. But if she wasn't, then how did she meet her murderer? No unassailable evidence has her in a pub after midnight. And as I've said before, if she wasn't out streetwalking before then, why did she suddenly get the urge to start at 1.30 am on a coldish, rainy night?

[Chava]

Gareth, you're right. It's not that I think it was impossible that she was on the stroll. But that, when you look at the facts and testimony we've been given, there is less evidence for her being a streetwalker than one might imagine. I always assumed Mary Jane Kelly was a street-hooker. I never thought to question it. Now I'm questioning it. I think it's more likely she was the kind of woman who put herself in the way of meeting men, in pubs perhaps, who might give her a little something for her trouble rather than the kind of woman who hisses at men from dark street corners and lays out her tariff before any 'business' takes place. It's just my opinion, and not based on anything except the fact that there are a lot of legends about her 'fighting for her pitch outside the 10 Bells' and so on. But nothing else. We know Nichols worked as a whore. We know Eddowes was an occasional whore and we know how she got to be in the area where her body was found. We know Chapman also did some casual work but also worked as a whore. So did Stride. All of these women either whored full-time or tried to keep body and soul together with other work and the occasional punter. But Kelly in this as in everything else is an enigma. We know she preferred to live as much off men as possible, but she seems to have done this by moving in with them. There is no eyewitness who comes forward and says something like 'I seen Mary Jane at her usual stand near the 10 Bells earlier in the evening...' This doesn't mean she didn't do this. Just that the evidence isn't as cut-and-dried as I'd always assumed before thinking about this thread!

...and I am beginning to repeat myself, so I'll put the thread down and tiptoe quietly away!

[perrymason]

......Finally, Michael, yes my artricle deals in speculation just like your notion that Mary and Maria spent their afternoon washing clothes using the tea kettle with the broken spout. Except that despite all the evidence to the contrary you continue to espouse that idea as gospel, not speculation,

Don.

Hi Don,

So that your misinterpretation of my remark, as a dig, doesnt go further than that, Ive suggested the above scenario and cited physical and witness evidence that could be used to support it.

To my knowledge, there is no trusted evidence or records that we know of that suggest Mary Kelly was whoring the night she was killed, or at anytime in her room.... nor that she was singing for a fee to Blotchy.

Mary was a woman before she was a whore...and maybe dreamed of being a wife (again) someday. To suggest that she had relationships with men that did not involve her street work is no more fanciful than suggesting that because she wore her hair out often, she likely washed it often. In fact we have evidence she did have relationships with men outside her work....however, we do not have evidence in any form that she brought her work to room 13.

There is at least a precedent that says Mary perhaps didnt bring Blotchy home for anything but companionship and male company, she had male friends that didnt pay her for sex. There is no precedent for her bringing a client home. Im not saying she didnt whore that night Don, just that there is not one shred of believable evidence that could support that idea. Unless of course you adhere to the "all whores whore always, even when whoring unseen" credo.

There is supporting evidence for a suggestion that she was entertaining a friend. And in thread relevance, if she had been a woman who was concerned about her arrears, she would have been "working"... like Mary Ann, not singing, like she was.

Best regards Don

[Sam Flynn]

And in thread relevance, if she had been a woman who was concerned about her arrears, she would have been "working"... like Mary Ann, not singing, like she was.

As Don pointed out, Mike, "working" might well have consisted of chatting and singing to a lonely old bugger whilst sharing his quart of beer.

[perrymason]

As Don pointed out, Mike, "working" might well have consisted of chatting and singing to a lonely old bugger whilst sharing his quart of beer.

Though I believe she was being grateful without giving sex to someone who got her drunk and walked her home, I would agree that she may have been paid to sing. There is no evidence of that, but sure.

I havent yet read the article, and Im therefore not intentionally dissing anything that Don may have in there, or his viewpoint in general. Just that in terms of having some support...from somewhere, anywhere... these kinds of ideas are just that, ideas. And in some cases, like Mary bringing a client to her room....a scenario with great ramifications as far as the investigation goes, there is not one single tidbit of viable suggestion anywhere that she, Mary Kelly, ever did that...before, or on that night.

Cheers Sam.

[Sara]

A few thoughts:

The one thing we do know about Mary is that she drank - a lot. When anyone drinks that much - and I spent my 20s drinking a great deal myself, in the company of many others who did likewise, some of whom (of both sexes) were certainly alcoholics - they will do almost anything to get more drink, especially if they have already had quite a bit.

I don't think the London pubs in those days closed at 11.30! - I would imagine in late C19th Whitechapel you could get a drink at anytime of the night; it seems to have been a 24 hour city then as now. If Mary did go out again - and I believe she did - imo it would be to see if she could find the drinking company, and the drink, which she craved. Some women also get quite randy when they've had a few btw, and Mary had been without a live-in lover for over a week.... She was clearly a woman who enjoyed sex, and 'having a good time'.

I doubt very much Mary was a prostitute in the sense we mean the word - I think she 'sang for her supper', or rather her drink and meal: she was a 'good time girl' rather than a whore. My feeling is that she paid McCarthy 'in kind' as as well, and that's why he tolerated her arrears. We also know she allowed other girls to sleep in her room - that's why Barnett left her (that and the drinking).

I also suspect that she knew the man who killed her, probably from them frequenting the same pub/s in the locality. I've spend many years drinking in pubs, clubs and bars myself, in various cities... (esp in West London and the West End). British 'pub culture' is a strange thing, not really replicated anywhere else. You tend to use the same few places, usually close to home or work, and quickly strike up a kind of intimacy with the other regulars. You feel safe with them since you feel you know them - but you don't really, of course: the pub is an enclosed little world of its own, and when people leave they may return to a quite different life, of which you know nothing.

The doctors attending agreed the victim died in the early hours, so I think we can discount the morning sightings with the 'costermonger' as MJK being seen with JtR. If we are to believe the two witnesses (it was two wasn't it, who saw her the following morning? - and spoke to her, remarking on how queer she looked), then we have to accept it wasn't Mary in the bed at all. I don't personally believe it was - and I can't see how anyone could be sure: who least of all Barnett would look that closely?

I think some other girl was using her room by arrangement (possibly made earlier that night), Mary being still in some pub or dallying elsewhere with a man friend after going out in search of more drink; and this is why we find it so hard to reconcile all the 'sightings'. Did she know she was meeting 'Astrakhan' after midnight, and that he had eg a hotel room or his own place at his disposal?

The accounts of the people who saw her next morning are very precise, and describe her in unfamiliar clothes - and in a state of shock. To me they have the ring of truth about them.

It also explains in a way about the locked door - she said she'd lost the key, but was that just an assertion of her independence from Barnett? Or had she maybe given the key to someone else?

She must have 'done a runner' before after failing to pay the rent - my instinct is that she did on this occasion, after finding the body. It's the only scenario which makes any sense to me!

[perrymason]

Let me see if I can explain using this setup....I dont believe that anything about the early morning of November 9th was in any way extraordinary or different than the usual for the residents of that courtyard....until Mary gets killed. If she didnt bring clients home ever before...which we can use safely as a baseline, in the absence of contrary evidence,.. then for her to have done that on the very night she is killed makes this an extraordinary evening before she is killed.

I feel pretty safe in that these positions Im taking because I have never seen a counter for them using known related data, if there is a quote that says she did that somewhere that I missed, Id be pleased to know of it.

If we are to assume that the events that lead up to the murder of Mary Kelly are seemingly benign and commonplace, which it seems they were, then that would mean she likely didnt whore in her room that night, and I suppose that being paid to do anything really falls under that umbrella too...so for me, the singing was gratis....just like her drinks most likely.

Best regards.

[claire]

I think you're quite right on this one, Michael: if she brought a client home that night, it would be exceptional...and insensible, if the accounts of her fears are true. And how unfortunate that the one night she makes that exception, it is JTR who she brings back...

But, if she was bringing back a drinking buddy, how exceptional would that have been? It seems as though it was quite a common occurrence, no? As Sara suggests, just knowing someone by sight in a pub gives you the sense that you know them.

I think, in any case, analysing the rent arrears by figuring out whether MJK was, or was not, a professional street walker, might be a bit of a lost cause. I think she was in arrears; I think, too, a lot of McCarthy's tenants were (I think it was Sam who pointed that out at some point?). And I think McC was an experienced enough landlord, and a sufficiently pragmatic man, to realise that the sorts of tenants he dealt with were never going to pay 100% rent. If Mary Cox was out walking the streets, all we can deduce from that is that she had a greater work ethic than MJK--whatever she did to make her money. It is surely impossible to say, well, we know Mary Cox was a streetwalker and she was out working, but MJK wasn't working (at least for most of the night), so therefore she wasn't a streetwalker. That's a false syllogism.

[Sam Flynn]

That's a false syllogism.

syllogism [sĭl'ə-jĭz'əm], noun. A window-ledge at a sperm bank.

[claire]

syllogism [sĭl'ə-jĭz'əm], noun. A window-ledge at a sperm bank.

heheh. or in a cubicle in the men's.

There's always one, isn't there? And more often than not, it's Mr. Flynn

[Supe]

Hi all,

Holiday is over and time to get back to work so I will leave this stramash for now. I would really like to wade through much of the nonsense that has been suggested, but it would take too long and the arguments are rather like the Hydra.

I'll just ask one last question--how the devil does anyone think "Mary Jane Kelly" kept alive if it wasn't from prostitution? As far as we know she never did a lick of work in her life, unlike Polly, Annie, Liz or Kate. Nor is anyone in the circumstances of Barnett or Fleming (or combined) able to "keep" her. Moreover, the bloom was already off her rose as there are several extant i terviews in which those who knew her said she looked 30 or more. Dream on gang.

Don.

[Hellrider]

If Mary Cox was out walking the streets, all we can deduce from that is that she had a greater work ethic than MJK...

...or needed the money more desperately for whatever reason. As Sam already said, it is difficult to deduce any kind of "work ethic" from a time span of a few hours.

[Chava]

I'll just ask one last question--how the devil does anyone think "Mary Jane Kelly" kept alive if it wasn't from prostitution? As far as we know she never did a lick of work in her life, unlike Polly, Annie, Liz or Kate. Nor is anyone in the circumstances of Barnett or Fleming (or combined) able to "keep" her. Moreover, the bloom was already off her rose as there are several extant i terviews in which those who knew her said she looked 30 or more. Dream on gang.

Given that she was living off pence a day and not paying rent, I imagine it wasn't difficult. She hangs around the pubs cadging drinks and picking up guys who will buy her the odd fish supper. She allows women to stay with her or leave stuff with her--and Barnett notwithstanding, I bet she charged them for the service. She's not some Maida Vale kept mistress with servants and a carriage.

Why were Nicholls, Chapman and Eddowes out there and vulnerable on the nights they died? They were trying to come up with doss-house money, that's why. Kelly already had a roof over her head. Maybe not forever, but for that night at least and probably a few more depending on what kind of arrangement she could fudge up with McCarthy.

[Sam Flynn]

Kelly already had a roof over her head.

So did Mrs Cox and Prater.