Kelly photo 1 enhanced - graphic

Hi Simon (and Mike)
Proper thinking...

"I identified her by the ear and eyes during a formal identification at the mortuary [after they'd replaced much of the flesh, cleaned and/or sewn up her wounds]".

Remember that nowhere is it stated that Barnett ID'ed Kelly by peeping through the window. (Although I'd be delighted to see Simon's source on this point.) I doubt very much that the Law would have recognised an identification carried out under such circumstances.

Hi Sam,

I said something similar to Simon when he suggested it....I couldnt believe that they would accept that kind of ID...then he produced a source.

If he did make his identification by having the police guide him round to the window, and they had her skin flaps set aside by a doctor or policeman for his view..then to me its almost like leading a witness. His eyes might be unable to see anything but blood and carnage, but his mind knew that he was looking through Marys window onto her bed, and at a dead woman with red hair like Marys.. Im not saying thats what this was...only that one would think he would have had access to view her privately, or at least in person.

Did he? I dont know the answer. I would have expected something like " Mr Barnett, were terribly sorry sir but we must ask you to come into the room and see if you can be certain of whom it is on the bed"...."I know its a difficult task sir, but we do need to ask it of you".

Cheers Sam

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Simon (and Mike)

Nice thinking.

Barnett— "I identified her by [lifting up flaps of skin which had fallen down over her] eyes, and her ear [which I couldn't see peeping through the broken window because that bloody bolster was in the way]."

Proper thinking...

"I identified her by the ear and eyes during a formal identification at the mortuary [after they'd replaced much of the flesh, cleaned and/or sewn up her wounds]".

Remember that nowhere is it stated that Barnett ID'ed Kelly by peeping through the window. (Although I'd be delighted to see Simon's source on this point.) I doubt very much that the Law would have recognised an identification carried out under such circumstances.

[Christine]

A little bit of information,taken from the Jamaican Gleaner newspaper of November 1888,describes an article in the room as being a 'Tumble Down'.Might that be some sort of a bolster.What is a 'Tumble Down'?

Greetings, harry

Are you sure you're reading this right? Tumble-down is an adjective, meaning ramshackle or falling apart. The whole house was tumble-down.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Sam,

Nice thinking.

Barnett—

"I identified her by [lifting up flaps of skin which had fallen down over her] eyes, and her ear [which I couldn't see peeping through the broken window because that bloody bolster was in the way]."

Regards,

Simon

... possibly because sheets of flesh sliced from the temples and the eyebrows had flopped forward and covered them, Mike.

That would explain the photo Sam, but not how he ID'd the eyes. Did they lift that flesh back off her face? According to Simon's evidence, the identification he made was from the window. If so, its a puzzle how he id'd her eyes... unless the police were inside the room adjusting that flesh.

I know by the time she had been the recipient of a "Volte Face", the jurors could see her eyes then.

Cheers mate.

[Sam Flynn]

I have to say I still find it curious that there were intact eyes to identify Mary by....I cant see any in the pictures myself.

... possibly because sheets of flesh sliced from the temples and the eyebrows had flopped forward and covered them, Mike.

[Sam Flynn]

What is a 'Tumble Down'?

A "Tumble Down" was a sexual service offered by American pimple doctors at the time

A little bit of information,taken from the Jamaican Gleaner newspaper of November 1888,describes an article in the room as being a 'Tumble Down'.Might that be some sort of a bolster.What is a 'Tumble Down'?

Hiya Harry,

I dont have the answer, but I would imagine the "down" is a play on words, maybe referring to an article stuffed with goose down.

I have read a bolster is akin to a body pillow, and it can be used across the head of the bed, or to raise your feet, or as a form fitting body cushion down the lenth of the bed.

Maybe its a Tumble Down because you can "tumble" onto a soft "down" filled pillow any way you choose to.

Of course the "down" might also refer to going to sleep....as in being "down" for the evening.

Cheers Harry

[harry]

A little bit of information,taken from the Jamaican Gleaner newspaper of November 1888,describes an article in the room as being a 'Tumble Down'.Might that be some sort of a bolster.What is a 'Tumble Down'?

Thats a remarkable photo Stewart...even more disturbing when focusing on her human form, face, head, neck, upper body,.. rather than on the glut of injury done to her.

I have to say I still find it curious that there were intact eyes to identify Mary by....I cant see any in the pictures myself.

Thanks for sharing the photo Stewart, much obliged.

All the best.

[Stewart P Evans]

An Old Photo

An old photo I found in my files -

[Stewart P Evans]

Imagination

It must be nice to have a vivid imagination, I should imagine that if you do you see lots of faces in clouds.

[Midnyte]

If I had done the autopsy

Hi everyone, Thanks for the input and lively debate. The blowup picture is great, a lot easier on the eyesight.The easiest way for me to explain how I see the pictures would be to do it as I imagine a more detailed coroner's report was done;
Mutilation to lower body;
The right thigh was denuded to the bone, and the flap of flesh, including the external organs of regeneration, the inner portion of the right thigh, and the flesh of the posterior surface of the calf and knee, with the muscle and achilles tendon attached, were placed INVERTED on the table.
The lower body showed several deep slashes made before the removal of the flap from the body;beginning at the right upper thigh, a deep slash separated the posterior thigh muscle from its connection , and it hung loosely from the body. The next slash deeply divided the right labia through the fatty tissue.
On the left thigh, beginning at the pubic area, were several shallower cuts that separated the left labia through the fatty tissue.
There were several stab type wounds further down the left thigh.
The left calf muscle was deeply divided to the deep muscles, and the flap matched the rounded flap hanging from the body with a deep notch dividing the back of the knee.
Wounds from the flesh showed on the body in the same areas, and were made when the flesh was still intact.
The flesh was then rolled over to the table top and displayed flesh side out.
The rounded wound on the right thigh matched the round cut on the end of the far side of the table.
In removing the flap, the outer area of the vaginal area and anal area are visible on the flesh and were deeply cored out from the body.

Nice little bedtime story for you!
Thanks for being good sports.
Joan

[Supe]

Jukka,

she doesn't want to have anything to do with this Casebook website!

Your sister is a very wise woman indeed.

Don.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Stewart!

The object on the table -

[ATTACH]4467[/ATTACH]

My sister's (a MD) commentary;

"A bolster!"

All the best
Jukka

(PS: she doesn't want to have anything to do with this Casebook website! )